A Summer for Silent Witness?
Douglas D. Germann, Sr.
76066.515 at compuserve.com
Thu Aug 7 18:42:22 PDT 2003
Harrison--
Silent Witness = Holding Space?
:-Doug. Germann
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>From Thu Aug 7 23:19:10 2003
Message-Id: <THU.7.AUG.2003.231910.0500.>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:19:10 -0500
Reply-To: ted at chicagohumanist.org
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Ted Ernst <ted at chicagohumanist.org>
Subject: Re: Chicago Social Forum
In-Reply-To: <MFEPIODHMHHIOJKAGIGDMEMHEJAA.ted at chicagohumanist.org>
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Just continuing the story.
Last night I hosted an OST meeting for this planning group. There was some
confusion over how many would come and if it should be cancelled, but of
course I expressed my opinion that the process works no matter how many come
so we could have it or not, either way. There were 4 of us for most of the
meeting and a 5th came near the end. Because it was so small I left out
some of the elements from the book. I didn't make bumblebee/butterfly
poster, nor Be Prepared to Be Surprised. I did post theme, one law, 4
principles and the time/space grid (4 20-minutes blocks). I didn't walk the
circle instead just informally explaining the process and the fact that I
was going to wear two hats as facilitator and participant. The 3 of us
generated 13 topics, some of which were merged together. The timeslots were
then juggled by the conveners to put topics into a sort of ordering so the
whole conversation would more or less just flow through most of the topics
on the wall. All topics were discussed, some more explicitly than others.
The bottom-line outcome of the meeting is that all planning meetings from
now until the event (Jan31/Feb1) will be in OST (and while not stated
explicitly how this would be evaluated, the idea is that this is an
experiment, but as we fleshed out the details, that idea sort of fell away
and people became more comfortable with passion bounded by responsibility).
At the previous meeting it had been decided to do a "themed meeting" once a
month where the 1st hour would be about a particular topic (connecting the
local to the global, for example) so that outreach could be to specific
groups perceived to be interested in that topic regardless of their prior
knowledge of the Social Forum idea. While this idea was retained, it will
also be in OST. We'll have two time slots per meeting where the suggestion
in the opening will be for the 1st time slot to be about the theme of the
night and the 2nd slot will be for "What needs to happen to get us to Jan
31st/Feb 1st?" People really liked the idea that these conversations would
be broken up by interests and the organizing piece could start in the 1st
session (contrary to suggestion) and the themed piece could carry over into
the 2nd session. We will also have monthly meetings only about logistics
(obviously since these are also OST, any topic is fair game, but the theme
for those meetings will be more nuts and bolts).
I'm really excited about this whole thing because the idea of the Chicago
Social Forum itself is to create an open space. I'm excited that we've
decided to live in that space while we're creating it (similar to what
Michael's got us doing in the openspaceworld.net wiki space online). Good
stuff.
peace,
ted
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Ernst [mailto:ted at chicagohumanist.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:55 PM
> To: OS List
> Subject: Chicago Social Forum
>
>
> Recently I heard about the World Social Forums that have been in
> Porto Alegre Brazil the past few years. I'm not totally clear on
> the concept yet, but it seems that it simply opening a space for
> people from all over the world to come together and share their
> own work and make connections (the idea is to oppose
> neo-liberalism and support universal human rights, etc). Anyone
> can propose a workshop, seminar, forum, whatever, during the
> week-long event and as long as it gets in on time, the organizers
> set the time and place and each thing happens. I've heard there
> were 1700 workshops at the last one (100,000 participants total).
>
> Anyway, there's a group that's been organizing for a Chicago
> Social Forum in some form since January. Until tonight they
> hadn't picked a date and didn't seem to have even choosen how
> they (the planning group or whatever) wanted to operate. I
> suggested we simply pick a date and then convene OST meetings how
> ever often we think is necessary between now and the event so
> that we'd be living in CSF space (presumably getting bigger and
> bigger if people liked the idea) up until the big "event" and
> then we could simply continue afterwards if we wanted to.
>
> One person in the group talked about experiencing open space and
> seeing it be VERY powerful when the group in question has passion
> (or some such word) like his church congregation doing their
> yearly planning, but how it doesn't work if the group doesn't
> care enough about the issue and it just falls apart. Pretty good
> explanation, no? Anyway, I didn't push it and the group was too
> scared to really go that direction, but they did like the concept
> of living in the type of environment we're trying to create.
>
> When we came to the end and they were setting up meeting dates
> and topics they decided to make a big recruiting push for a big
> early sepember meeting with a theme of connecting local to global
> (not open space, I'm afraid), but also decided waiting until then
> for another meeting might prove a momentum-killer. A suggestion
> was floated to not invite new people, but to have "just us" for
> the next one. I stepped in at this point to suggest OST again as
> it doesn't take any planning time and people would get a chance
> to see how they like it. The group accepted and off we go!
>
> It seems the "big event" will happen in January. I'll keep you posted.
>
> peace,
> ted
> ___
> Humanize the Earth! http://www.chicagohumanist.org
http://www.tedernst.com
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>From Thu Aug 7 23:46:19 2003
Message-Id: <THU.7.AUG.2003.234619.0700.>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:46:19 -0700
Reply-To: chris at chriscorrigan.com
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Chris Corrigan <chris at chriscorrigan.com>
Subject: Re: Chicago Social Forum
In-Reply-To: <MFEPIODHMHHIOJKAGIGDCEKPEKAA.ted at chicagohumanist.org>
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Great story about another small OST meeting. What strikes me is how
important it is to flow in small meetings, the emerging structures come
and go so fast that to pin any of it down is just folly. Thanks Ted for
sharing that.
Chris
---
CHRIS CORRIGAN
Bowen Island, BC, Canada
http://www.chriscorrigan.com
chris at chriscorrigan.com
(604) 947-9236
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Ted
> Ernst
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 9:19 PM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: Re: Chicago Social Forum
>
> Just continuing the story.
>
> Last night I hosted an OST meeting for this planning group. There was
> some
> confusion over how many would come and if it should be cancelled, but
of
> course I expressed my opinion that the process works no matter how
many
> come
> so we could have it or not, either way. There were 4 of us for most
of
> the
> meeting and a 5th came near the end. Because it was so small I left
out
> some of the elements from the book. I didn't make bumblebee/butterfly
> poster, nor Be Prepared to Be Surprised. I did post theme, one law, 4
> principles and the time/space grid (4 20-minutes blocks). I didn't
walk
> the
> circle instead just informally explaining the process and the fact
that I
> was going to wear two hats as facilitator and participant. The 3 of
us
> generated 13 topics, some of which were merged together. The
timeslots
> were
> then juggled by the conveners to put topics into a sort of ordering so
the
> whole conversation would more or less just flow through most of the
topics
> on the wall. All topics were discussed, some more explicitly than
others.
>
> The bottom-line outcome of the meeting is that all planning meetings
from
> now until the event (Jan31/Feb1) will be in OST (and while not stated
> explicitly how this would be evaluated, the idea is that this is an
> experiment, but as we fleshed out the details, that idea sort of fell
away
> and people became more comfortable with passion bounded by
> responsibility).
> At the previous meeting it had been decided to do a "themed meeting"
once
> a
> month where the 1st hour would be about a particular topic (connecting
the
> local to the global, for example) so that outreach could be to
specific
> groups perceived to be interested in that topic regardless of their
prior
> knowledge of the Social Forum idea. While this idea was retained, it
will
> also be in OST. We'll have two time slots per meeting where the
> suggestion
> in the opening will be for the 1st time slot to be about the theme of
the
> night and the 2nd slot will be for "What needs to happen to get us to
Jan
> 31st/Feb 1st?" People really liked the idea that these conversations
> would
> be broken up by interests and the organizing piece could start in the
1st
> session (contrary to suggestion) and the themed piece could carry over
> into
> the 2nd session. We will also have monthly meetings only about
logistics
> (obviously since these are also OST, any topic is fair game, but the
theme
> for those meetings will be more nuts and bolts).
>
> I'm really excited about this whole thing because the idea of the
Chicago
> Social Forum itself is to create an open space. I'm excited that
we've
> decided to live in that space while we're creating it (similar to what
> Michael's got us doing in the openspaceworld.net wiki space online).
Good
> stuff.
>
> peace,
> ted
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ted Ernst [mailto:ted at chicagohumanist.org]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:55 PM
> > To: OS List
> > Subject: Chicago Social Forum
> >
> >
> > Recently I heard about the World Social Forums that have been in
> > Porto Alegre Brazil the past few years. I'm not totally clear on
> > the concept yet, but it seems that it simply opening a space for
> > people from all over the world to come together and share their
> > own work and make connections (the idea is to oppose
> > neo-liberalism and support universal human rights, etc). Anyone
> > can propose a workshop, seminar, forum, whatever, during the
> > week-long event and as long as it gets in on time, the organizers
> > set the time and place and each thing happens. I've heard there
> > were 1700 workshops at the last one (100,000 participants total).
> >
> > Anyway, there's a group that's been organizing for a Chicago
> > Social Forum in some form since January. Until tonight they
> > hadn't picked a date and didn't seem to have even choosen how
> > they (the planning group or whatever) wanted to operate. I
> > suggested we simply pick a date and then convene OST meetings how
> > ever often we think is necessary between now and the event so
> > that we'd be living in CSF space (presumably getting bigger and
> > bigger if people liked the idea) up until the big "event" and
> > then we could simply continue afterwards if we wanted to.
> >
> > One person in the group talked about experiencing open space and
> > seeing it be VERY powerful when the group in question has passion
> > (or some such word) like his church congregation doing their
> > yearly planning, but how it doesn't work if the group doesn't
> > care enough about the issue and it just falls apart. Pretty good
> > explanation, no? Anyway, I didn't push it and the group was too
> > scared to really go that direction, but they did like the concept
> > of living in the type of environment we're trying to create.
> >
> > When we came to the end and they were setting up meeting dates
> > and topics they decided to make a big recruiting push for a big
> > early sepember meeting with a theme of connecting local to global
> > (not open space, I'm afraid), but also decided waiting until then
> > for another meeting might prove a momentum-killer. A suggestion
> > was floated to not invite new people, but to have "just us" for
> > the next one. I stepped in at this point to suggest OST again as
> > it doesn't take any planning time and people would get a chance
> > to see how they like it. The group accepted and off we go!
> >
> > It seems the "big event" will happen in January. I'll keep you
posted.
> >
> > peace,
> > ted
> > ___
> > Humanize the Earth! http://www.chicagohumanist.org
> http://www.tedernst.com
>
> *
> *
> ==========================================================
> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
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> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
> view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu,
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>
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>From Thu Aug 7 23:50:39 2003
Message-Id: <THU.7.AUG.2003.235039.0700.>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:50:39 -0700
Reply-To: chris at chriscorrigan.com
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Chris Corrigan <chris at chriscorrigan.com>
Subject: Re: Letting go; easy to say...
In-Reply-To: <996E3240855D9C49B288DFD4AFCA6998197A4D at chcrosvr1.depcon.internal>
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I love this idea of championing freedom shock. If you have an issue
with great complexity, diversity, passion and urgency, Open Space around
it. And it allows others to get on with the work at hand, while the
shocked participants find support and understanding from each other. =20
=20
What they might take away from an experience like that is that talking
about futility is in itself a hopeful step. I mean seriously, if I was
in that group I might just ask myself at the end of it, =93what did we
just do?=94 And the answer might be, we took responsibility for =
convening
a discussion group on our fear that nothing was going to change. That
is change in itself, seems to me. =20
=20
Thanks, Mick, and thanks for contributing the stories.
=20
Chris
---
CHRIS CORRIGAN
Bowen Island, BC, Canada
http://www.chriscorrigan.com
chris at chriscorrigan.com
(604) 947-9236
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Mike
Copeland
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 7:27 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Letting go; easy to say...
=20
G'day Chris
=20
today you wrote:
=20
Once when I was facilitating a group of First Nations people from all
over British Columbia and we were doing action planning, I invited the
group to "come forward to the centre of the circle, grab five dots and
indicate where your passion lay."=20
=20
Two older women from the Carrier Nation started laughing. In the
Carrier language "do't" (which sounds very much like "dot") is a very
rude term for female anatomy. They had a moment of thrilling confusion
until they figured out what I REALLY meant!=20
=20
Chris=20
=20
Man you have some great stories; this is priceless!!! You could've had
some real super passionate people on your hands there!
=20
My workmates and I had an Open Space workshop last week facilitated by
Daniel Lebel. Did we get passionate when it came to convergence. Freedom
shock divided the group. Those in shock were not going to give up their
total belief that they had no power to effect change except through the
usual closed space channels. Others of us, and I was a participant,
were exasperated with their lack of responsiveness. Eventually after a
bit of hollering someone announced they were going to champion an issue.
The champions grabbed their issues and convened meetings, the rest
formed a circle and championed freedom shock, and the whole futility of
the exercise because nothing was going to change!
=20
It was a sobering experience for me, and a good reminder of the amazing
transformation that is required of our organisations and systems if they
are ever going to be open space!
=20
I was reading some old university notes about soft systems methodology.
Heck open space can do in three days what an encyclopedic dissertation
and months of meetings could never do. The key seems to be this letting
go thing. Which while easily said is probably the greatest lesson I
have learned in my short life.
=20
Not to say I have "arrived" yet. It took some pretty major life
threatening convincing before I could accept life on life's terms and
then let my version of reality go. It's a daily journey. Write now I'm
letting go the fear of writing my personal thoughts in a public domain.
=20
I'd be keen to hear what the rest of you think?
=20
All the Best
Mike Copeland
=20
=20
---
CHRIS CORRIGAN
Bowen Island, BC, Canada
http://www.chriscorrigan.com
chris at chriscorrigan.com
(604) 947-9236
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Lucy
Ge=E3o
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 7:43 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Res: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)
=20
Joelle, artur (and all too)
=20
do not be worried, the word "paper" has differents meanings as artur
showed but "role" is used so frequently that I am almost sure that the
brazilian people attending the event understood the confusion between
what the translator did and what you was really intending to say and ,
possibly, smiled.=20
=20
lucy
=20
-------Mensagem original-------
=20
De: OSLIST <mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>=20
Data: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 19:48:30
Para: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Assunto: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)
=20
Hi Joelle and Lucy (and all)
=20
Joelle wrote:
=20
>Artur-- (...)
>I was quite interested to observe that the Brazilians listed only roles
of
>family and relationships. I suspect, that this is because family and
>interpersonal relationships are far more important in Latin cultures.
But
>I also wonder
>if the word which was used to translate "roles," (I think something
like
>"rolas," ) might have a more-specific meaning in Portugese, so the
>response might
>have been shaped by the word that was used. What do you think?
=20
And Lucy replyied:
=20
>joelle, the translation is really an important detail in any place of
the
>word. really the bad translation of "role" transformed a word that
means
>"paper" or "part of" (he plays the part of the monster) into a
swearword
>used for some cheap persons speaking about penis. complicated, you see?
=20
This is really an amazing story about languages and translations. May I
use
that story for other purposes and quote you both?
=20
I would like to add some comments:
=20
1. I have decided to wait for an eventual answer from Lucy, as I had the
idea that "rola" could have in Brasil this slang meaning, but I was not
sure. "rola" is indeed a white bird (turtle-dove, says my Dictionary)
that
is used in slang Portugues to refer only to "female brests", but I was
almost sure of once hearing it in Brasil with the meaning Lucy
clarified.
=20
2. This contains other lessons. Translators are often not very good,
especially if they don't know the subject they are trying to traslate.
And
I have noticed often that, in such cases, they don't say "I can't
translate
that". They will chose - especially in oral translation" - a "similar
word". In this case with devastating effects... I suposed that the
Brasilians, confused, tryed to give an answer... as they could... So, I
suspect your conclusion, was not necessarily correct, Joelle.
=20
3. But even if the translator knows the meaning of the word he/she can
often do a "correct
word-translation" that is still useless. "Role" translates into
Portugues,
as Lucy pointed out, as "pap=E9l", plural "pap=E9is" (the Spanish
"papeles").
The point is that "papel" also means "paper", like in "a sheet of
paper". I
wonder what the Brasilians would answer to this possibility, namely if
they
were low class and never heard of "papeis" in this sense....
=20
4. Contextual translation, done by someone that knows the subject, would
understant the what should be translated was not "roles" but "social
roles"
giving "pap=E9is sociais" that can not, of course, be confused with =
sheets
of
papers.
=20
5. Now imagine what would happen if this was a conversation between an
Arab
and a Juif mediated by an American President, with the help of a
translator
without an "absolutely perfect knowledge" of BOTH languages. Terrible, I
suspect.
=20
6. My conclusion - if you era "broadcasting" or publishing a book, good
traslations can be useful
(like in the Brasilian translation of the User's Guide).. But to mediate
"conversations", translations are NEVER a replacement for bi-linguism.
=20
7: I think that people giving training in a foreign language in a
different
country, when that training must be mediated by a translater, must
always
ask very seriously what are the qualifications of the translator in the
subject of the training and not only the "translation qualification" in
other subjects.
=20
8. I am sure that I could do a good translation of English to Portuguese
in
subjects like management or information systems. But I am affraid to
confess, Joelle, that I would be unable to transslate one of your poems,
as
I don't understand poetry in English. And I could very well think that a
turtle-dove was a turtle of some special species...
=20
Regards
=20
Artur
=20
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I love this idea of championing =
freedom
shock. <span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0</span>If you have an issue =
with great
complexity, diversity, passion and urgency, Open Space around it. <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0</span>And it allows others to get on with =
the work
at hand, while the shocked participants find support and understanding =
from
each other. <span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What they might take away from an
experience like that is that talking about futility is in itself a =
hopeful
step.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>I mean seriously, if I =
was in that
group I might just ask myself at the end of it, “what did we just =
do?”<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>And the answer might be, we took =
responsibility
for convening a discussion group on our fear that nothing was going to =
change. <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0</span>That is change in itself, seems to =
me.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks, Mick, and thanks for =
contributing
the stories.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Chris<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>---<br>
CHRIS CORRIGAN<br>
</span></font><st1:place><st1:City><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>Bowen =
Island</span></font></st1:City><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>,
</span></font><st1:State><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>BC</span></font></st1:State><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>, =
</span></font><st1:country-region><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>Canada</span></fon=
t></st1:country-region></st1:place><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'><br>
<a =
href=3D"http://www.chriscorrigan.com">http://www.chriscorrigan.com</a><br=
>
<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris at chriscorrigan.com">chris at chriscorrigan.com</a></span=
></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>(604) 947-9236<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> OSLIST
[mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Mike Copeland<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> =
</span></font><st1:date
Month=3D"8" Day=3D"7" Year=3D"2003"><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Thursday, August 07, =
2003</span></font></st1:date><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><st1:time
Hour=3D"19" Minute=3D"27"><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>7:27 PM</span></font></st1:time><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Letting go; easy =
to
say...</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>G'day =
Chris</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>today you =
wrote:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Once when I was facilitating a =
group of
First Nations people from all over =
</span></font><st1:State><st1:place><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>British =
Columbia</span></font></st1:place></st1:State><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> and we were doing action planning, I invited the group to
"come forward to the centre of the circle, grab five dots and =
indicate
where your passion lay."</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></fo=
nt><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>T</span></font><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>wo older
women from the Carrier Nation started laughing.<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0
</span>In the Carrier language "do't" (which sounds very much =
like
"dot") is a very rude term for female anatomy.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 </span>They had a moment of thrilling =
confusion
until they figured out what I REALLY meant!</span></font><font size=3D2
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Chris</span></font><font size=3D2
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Man you have some great stories; =
this is
priceless!!! You could've had some real super passionate people on your =
hands
there!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>My workmates and I had an Open =
Space
workshop last week facilitated by Daniel Lebel. Did we get =
passionate when
it came to convergence. Freedom shock divided the group. Those in =
shock
were not going to give up their total belief that they had no power to =
effect
change except through the usual closed space channels. Others of =
us, and
I was a participant, were exasperated with their lack of responsiveness.
Eventually after a bit of hollering someone announced they were going to =
champion
an issue. The champions grabbed their issues and convened =
meetings,
the rest formed a circle and championed freedom shock, and the whole =
futility
of the exercise because nothing was going to =
change!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>It was a sobering experience for =
me, and a
good reminder of the amazing transformation that is required of our
organisations and systems if they are ever going to be open =
space!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I was reading some old university =
notes
about soft systems methodology. Heck open space can do in three =
days what
an encyclopedic dissertation and months of meetings could never =
do. The
key seems to be this letting go thing. Which while easily said is
probably the greatest lesson I have learned in my short =
life.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Not to say I have =
"arrived" yet.
It took some pretty major life threatening convincing before I could =
accept
life on life's terms and then let my version of reality go. It's a daily
journey. Write now I'm letting go the fear of writing my personal =
thoughts in a
public domain.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I'd be keen to hear what the rest =
of you
think?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>All the =
Best</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Mike =
Copeland</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>---<br>
CHRIS CORRIGAN<br>
</span></font><st1:place><st1:City><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>Bowen =
Island</span></font></st1:City><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>,
</span></font><st1:State><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>BC</span></font></st1:State><font =
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color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>, =
</span></font><st1:country-region><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>Canada</span></fon=
t></st1:country-region></st1:place><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'><br>
<a =
href=3D"http://www.chriscorrigan.com">http://www.chriscorrigan.com</a><br=
>
<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris at chriscorrigan.com">chris at chriscorrigan.com</a></span=
></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>(604) 947-9236<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> OSLIST
[mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Lucy Ge=E3o<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> =
</span></font><st1:date
Month=3D"7" Day=3D"15" Year=3D"2003"><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Tuesday, July 15, =
2003</span></font></st1:date><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><st1:time
Hour=3D"19" Minute=3D"43"><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>7:43 PM</span></font></st1:time><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Res: Languages =
and
Translations (was: Languages in </span></font><st1:place><font size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Europe</span></font></st1:p=
lace><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>...)</span></font><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D"100%"
style=3D'width:100.0%;mso-cellspacing:0in;mso-padding-alt:1.5pt 1.5pt =
1.5pt 1.5pt'>
<tr style=3D'mso-yfti-irow:0'>
<td width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%;padding:1.5pt 1.5pt 1.5pt =
1.5pt'>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Joelle, artur (and all =
too)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>do not be worried, the word "paper" =
has
differents meanings as artur showed but "role" is used so
frequently that I am almost sure that the brazilian people attending =
the
event understood the confusion between what the translator =
did and
what you was really intending to say and , possibly, smiled. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>lucy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><i><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-style:italic'>-------Mensagem =
original-------</span></font></i><font
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=3Dreceivestrings>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
=
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>De:</span></font></=
i></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
=
href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST</a><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
=
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Data:</span></font>=
</i></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Tuesday,
July 15, 2003 19:48:30<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
=
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Para:</span></font>=
</i></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
=
href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE=
.EDU</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
=
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Assunto:</span></fo=
nt></i></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Languages
and Translations (was: Languages in =
Europe...)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hi Joelle and Lucy (and =
all)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Joelle wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>Artur-- (...)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>I was quite interested to observe that the =
Brazilians
listed only roles of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>family and relationships. I suspect, that this =
is
because family and<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>interpersonal relationships are far more =
important in
Latin cultures. But<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>I also wonder<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>if the word which was used to translate
"roles," (I think something =
like<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>"rolas," ) might have a more-specific
meaning in Portugese, so the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>response might<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>have been shaped by the word that was used. =
What do
you think?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>And Lucy replyied:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>joelle, the translation is really an important =
detail
in any place of the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>word. really the bad translation of =
"role"
transformed a word that means<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>"paper" or "part of" (he =
plays the
part of the monster) into a swearword<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>used for some cheap persons speaking about =
penis.
complicated, you see?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>This is really an amazing story about languages and
translations. May I use<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>that story for other purposes and quote you =
both?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I would like to add some =
comments:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>1. I have decided to wait for an eventual answer =
from
Lucy, as I had the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>idea that "rola" could have in Brasil =
this slang
meaning, but I was not<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>sure. "rola" is indeed a white bird
(turtle-dove, says my Dictionary) that<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>is used in slang Portugues to refer only to =
"female
brests", but I was<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>almost sure of once hearing it in Brasil with the =
meaning
Lucy clarified.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>2. This contains other lessons. Translators are =
often not
very good,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>especially if they don't know the subject they are =
trying
to traslate. And<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I have noticed often that, in such cases, they =
don't say
"I can't translate<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>that". They will chose - especially in oral
translation" - a "similar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>word". In this case with devastating =
effects... I
suposed that the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Brasilians, confused, tryed to give an answer... as =
they
could... So, I<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>suspect your conclusion, was not necessarily =
correct,
Joelle.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>3. But even if the translator knows the meaning of =
the
word he/she can<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>often do a =
"correct<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>word-translation" that is still useless.
"Role" translates into =
Portugues,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>as Lucy pointed out, as "pap=E9l", plural
"pap=E9is" (the Spanish =
"papeles").<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The point is that "papel" also means
"paper", like in "a sheet of paper". =
I<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>wonder what the Brasilians would answer to this
possibility, namely if they<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>were low class and never heard of =
"papeis" in
this sense....<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>4. Contextual translation, done by someone that =
knows the
subject, would<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>understant the what should be translated was not
"roles" but "social =
roles"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>giving "pap=E9is sociais" that can not, =
of course,
be confused with sheets of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>papers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>5. Now imagine what would happen if this was a
conversation between an Arab<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>and a Juif mediated by an American President, with =
the
help of a translator<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>without an "absolutely perfect knowledge" =
of
BOTH languages. Terrible, I<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>suspect.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>6. My conclusion - if you era =
"broadcasting" or
publishing a book, good<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>traslations can be =
useful<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>(like in the Brasilian translation of the User's =
Guide)..
But to mediate<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>"conversations", translations are NEVER a
replacement for bi-linguism.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>7: I think that people giving training in a foreign
language in a different<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>country, when that training must be mediated by a
translater, must always<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>ask very seriously what are the qualifications of =
the
translator in the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>subject of the training and not only the =
"translation
qualification" in<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>other subjects.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>8. I am sure that I could do a good translation of =
English
to Portuguese in<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>subjects like management or information systems. =
But I am
affraid to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>confess, Joelle, that I would be unable to =
transslate one
of your poems, as<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I don't understand poetry in English. And I could =
very
well think that a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>turtle-dove was a turtle of some special =
species...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Artur<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>*<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
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