Letting go; easy to say...

Thu Aug 7 23:50:39 PDT 2003

I love this idea of championing freedom shock.  If you have an issue
with great complexity, diversity, passion and urgency, Open Space around
it.  And it allows others to get on with the work at hand, while the
shocked participants find support and understanding from each other.  

What they might take away from an experience like that is that talking
about futility is in itself a hopeful step.  I mean seriously, if I was
in that group I might just ask myself at the end of it, “what did we
just do?”  And the answer might be, we took responsibility for convening
a discussion group on our fear that nothing was going to change.  That
is change in itself, seems to me.  

Thanks, Mick, and thanks for contributing the stories.

Chris
---
CHRIS CORRIGAN
Bowen Island, BC, Canada
http://www.chriscorrigan.com
chris at chriscorrigan.com
(604) 947-9236

-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Mike
Copeland
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 7:27 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Letting go; easy to say...

G'day Chris

today you wrote:

Once when I was facilitating a group of First Nations people from all
over British Columbia and we were doing action planning, I invited the
group to "come forward to the centre of the circle, grab five dots and
indicate where your passion lay." 

Two older women from the Carrier Nation started laughing.  In the
Carrier language "do't" (which sounds very much like "dot") is a very
rude term for female anatomy.  They had a moment of thrilling confusion
until they figured out what I REALLY meant! 

Chris 

Man you have some great stories; this is priceless!!! You could've had
some real super passionate people on your hands there!

My workmates and I had an Open Space workshop last week facilitated by
Daniel Lebel. Did we get passionate when it came to convergence. Freedom
shock divided the group. Those in shock were not going to give up their
total belief that they had no power to effect change except through the
usual closed space channels.  Others of us, and I was a participant,
were exasperated with their lack of responsiveness. Eventually after a
bit of hollering someone announced they were going to champion an issue.
The champions grabbed their issues and convened meetings,  the rest
formed a circle and championed freedom shock, and the whole futility of
the exercise because nothing was going to change!

It was a sobering experience for me, and a good reminder of the amazing
transformation that is required of our organisations and systems if they
are ever going to be open space!

I was reading some old university notes about soft systems methodology.
Heck open space can do in three days what an encyclopedic dissertation
and months of meetings could never do.  The key seems to be this letting
go thing.  Which while easily said is probably the greatest lesson I
have learned in my short life.

Not to say I have "arrived" yet. It took some pretty major life
threatening convincing before I could accept life on life's terms and
then let my version of reality go. It's a daily journey. Write now I'm
letting go the fear of writing my personal thoughts in a public domain.

I'd be keen to hear what the rest of you think?

All the Best
Mike Copeland

---
CHRIS CORRIGAN
Bowen Island, BC, Canada
http://www.chriscorrigan.com
chris at chriscorrigan.com
(604) 947-9236

-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Lucy
Geão
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 7:43 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Res: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)

Joelle, artur (and all too)

do not be worried,  the word "paper" has differents meanings as artur
showed but "role" is used so frequently that I am almost sure that the
brazilian people attending the event understood the confusion between
what the translator did and what you was really intending to say and ,
possibly, smiled. 

lucy

-------Mensagem original-------

De: OSLIST <mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU> 
Data: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 19:48:30
Para: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Assunto: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)

Hi Joelle and Lucy (and all)

Joelle wrote:

>Artur-- (...)
>I was quite interested to observe that the Brazilians listed only roles
of
>family and relationships. I suspect, that this is because family and
>interpersonal relationships are far more important in Latin cultures.
But
>I also wonder
>if the word which was used to translate "roles," (I think something
like
>"rolas," ) might have a more-specific meaning in Portugese, so the
>response might
>have been shaped by the word that was used. What do you think?

And Lucy replyied:

>joelle, the translation is really an important detail in any place of
the
>word. really the bad translation of "role" transformed a word that
means
>"paper" or "part of" (he plays the part of the monster) into a
swearword
>used for some cheap persons speaking about penis. complicated, you see?

This is really an amazing story about languages and translations. May I
use
that story for other purposes and quote you both?

I would like to add some comments:

1. I have decided to wait for an eventual answer from Lucy, as I had the
idea that "rola" could have in Brasil this slang meaning, but I was not
sure. "rola" is indeed a white bird (turtle-dove, says my Dictionary)
that
is used in slang Portugues to refer only to "female brests", but I was
almost sure of once hearing it in Brasil with the meaning Lucy
clarified.

2. This contains other lessons. Translators are often not very good,
especially if they don't know the subject they are trying to traslate.
And
I have noticed often that, in such cases, they don't say "I can't
translate
that". They will chose - especially in oral translation" - a "similar
word". In this case with devastating effects... I suposed that the
Brasilians, confused, tryed to give an answer... as they could... So, I
suspect your conclusion, was not necessarily correct, Joelle.

3. But even if the translator knows the meaning of the word he/she can
often do a "correct
word-translation" that is still useless. "Role" translates into
Portugues,
as Lucy pointed out, as "papél", plural "papéis" (the Spanish
"papeles").
The point is that "papel" also means "paper", like in "a sheet of
paper". I
wonder what the Brasilians would answer to this possibility, namely if
they
were low class and never heard of "papeis" in this sense....

4. Contextual translation, done by someone that knows the subject, would
understant the what should be translated was not "roles" but "social
roles"
giving "papéis sociais" that can not, of course, be confused with sheets
of
papers.

5. Now imagine what would happen if this was a conversation between an
Arab
and a Juif mediated by an American President, with the help of a
translator
without an "absolutely perfect knowledge" of BOTH languages. Terrible, I
suspect.

6. My conclusion - if you era "broadcasting" or publishing a book, good
traslations can be useful
(like in the Brasilian translation of the User's Guide).. But to mediate
"conversations", translations are NEVER a replacement for bi-linguism.

7: I think that people giving training in a foreign language in a
different
country, when that training must be mediated by a translater, must
always
ask very seriously what are the qualifications of the translator in the
subject of the training and not only the "translation qualification" in
other subjects.

8. I am sure that I could do a good translation of English to Portuguese
in
subjects like management or information systems. But I am affraid to
confess, Joelle, that I would be unable to transslate one of your poems,
as
I don't understand poetry in English. And I could very well think that a
turtle-dove was a turtle of some special species...

Regards

Artur

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