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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I love this idea of championing freedom
shock. <span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>If you have an issue with great
complexity, diversity, passion and urgency, Open Space around it. <span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>And it allows others to get on with the work
at hand, while the shocked participants find support and understanding from
each other. <span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What they might take away from an
experience like that is that talking about futility is in itself a hopeful
step.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I mean seriously, if I was in that
group I might just ask myself at the end of it, “what did we just do?”<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>And the answer might be, we took responsibility
for convening a discussion group on our fear that nothing was going to change. <span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>That is change in itself, seems to me.<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks, Mick, and thanks for contributing
the stories.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Chris<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>---<br>
CHRIS CORRIGAN<br>
</span></font><st1:place><st1:City><font size=2 color=navy><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>Bowen Island</span></font></st1:City><font
size=2 color=navy><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>,
</span></font><st1:State><font size=2 color=navy><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>BC</span></font></st1:State><font size=2
color=navy><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>, </span></font><st1:country-region><font
size=2 color=navy><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>Canada</span></font></st1:country-region></st1:place><font
size=2 color=navy><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'><br>
<a href="http://www.chriscorrigan.com">http://www.chriscorrigan.com</a><br>
<a href="mailto:chris@chriscorrigan.com">chris@chriscorrigan.com</a></span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>(604) 947-9236<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> OSLIST
[mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Mike Copeland<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><st1:date
Month="8" Day="7" Year="2003"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Thursday, August 07, 2003</span></font></st1:date><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><st1:time
Hour="19" Minute="27"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>7:27 PM</span></font></st1:time><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Letting go; easy to
say...</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>G'day Chris</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>today you wrote:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Once when I was facilitating a group of
First Nations people from all over </span></font><st1:State><st1:place><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>British Columbia</span></font></st1:place></st1:State><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> and we were doing action planning, I invited the group to
"come forward to the centre of the circle, grab five dots and indicate
where your passion lay."</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>T</span></font><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>wo older
women from the Carrier Nation started laughing.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>
</span>In the Carrier language "do't" (which sounds very much like
"dot") is a very rude term for female anatomy.<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>They had a moment of thrilling confusion
until they figured out what I REALLY meant!</span></font><font size=2
color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Chris</span></font><font size=2
color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Man you have some great stories; this is
priceless!!! You could've had some real super passionate people on your hands
there!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>My workmates and I had an Open Space
workshop last week facilitated by Daniel Lebel. Did we get passionate when
it came to convergence. Freedom shock divided the group. Those in shock
were not going to give up their total belief that they had no power to effect
change except through the usual closed space channels. Others of us, and
I was a participant, were exasperated with their lack of responsiveness.
Eventually after a bit of hollering someone announced they were going to champion
an issue. The champions grabbed their issues and convened meetings,
the rest formed a circle and championed freedom shock, and the whole futility
of the exercise because nothing was going to change!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>It was a sobering experience for me, and a
good reminder of the amazing transformation that is required of our
organisations and systems if they are ever going to be open space!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I was reading some old university notes
about soft systems methodology. Heck open space can do in three days what
an encyclopedic dissertation and months of meetings could never do. The
key seems to be this letting go thing. Which while easily said is
probably the greatest lesson I have learned in my short life.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Not to say I have "arrived" yet.
It took some pretty major life threatening convincing before I could accept
life on life's terms and then let my version of reality go. It's a daily
journey. Write now I'm letting go the fear of writing my personal thoughts in a
public domain.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I'd be keen to hear what the rest of you
think?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>All the Best</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Mike Copeland</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>---<br>
CHRIS CORRIGAN<br>
</span></font><st1:place><st1:City><font size=2 color=navy><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>Bowen Island</span></font></st1:City><font
size=2 color=navy><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>,
</span></font><st1:State><font size=2 color=navy><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>BC</span></font></st1:State><font size=2
color=navy><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>, </span></font><st1:country-region><font
size=2 color=navy><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>Canada</span></font></st1:country-region></st1:place><font
size=2 color=navy><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'><br>
<a href="http://www.chriscorrigan.com">http://www.chriscorrigan.com</a><br>
<a href="mailto:chris@chriscorrigan.com">chris@chriscorrigan.com</a></span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>(604) 947-9236<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> OSLIST
[mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Lucy Geão<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><st1:date
Month="7" Day="15" Year="2003"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Tuesday, July 15, 2003</span></font></st1:date><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><st1:time
Hour="19" Minute="43"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>7:43 PM</span></font></st1:time><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Res: Languages and
Translations (was: Languages in </span></font><st1:place><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Europe</span></font></st1:place><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>...)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width="100%"
style='width:100.0%;mso-cellspacing:0in;mso-padding-alt:1.5pt 1.5pt 1.5pt 1.5pt'>
<tr style='mso-yfti-irow:0'>
<td width="100%" style='width:100.0%;padding:1.5pt 1.5pt 1.5pt 1.5pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Joelle, artur (and all too)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>do not be worried, the word "paper" has
differents meanings as artur showed but "role" is used so
frequently that I am almost sure that the brazilian people attending the
event understood the confusion between what the translator did and
what you was really intending to say and , possibly, smiled. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>lucy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-style:italic'>-------Mensagem original-------</span></font></i><font
face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=receivestrings>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><i><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>De:</span></font></i></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><i><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Data:</span></font></i></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Tuesday,
July 15, 2003 19:48:30<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><i><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Para:</span></font></i></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><i><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Assunto:</span></font></i></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Languages
and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hi Joelle and Lucy (and all)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Joelle wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>Artur-- (...)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>I was quite interested to observe that the Brazilians
listed only roles of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>family and relationships. I suspect, that this is
because family and<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>interpersonal relationships are far more important in
Latin cultures. But<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>I also wonder<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>if the word which was used to translate
"roles," (I think something like<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>"rolas," ) might have a more-specific
meaning in Portugese, so the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>response might<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>have been shaped by the word that was used. What do
you think?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>And Lucy replyied:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>joelle, the translation is really an important detail
in any place of the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>word. really the bad translation of "role"
transformed a word that means<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>"paper" or "part of" (he plays the
part of the monster) into a swearword<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>used for some cheap persons speaking about penis.
complicated, you see?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>This is really an amazing story about languages and
translations. May I use<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>that story for other purposes and quote you both?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I would like to add some comments:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>1. I have decided to wait for an eventual answer from
Lucy, as I had the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>idea that "rola" could have in Brasil this slang
meaning, but I was not<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>sure. "rola" is indeed a white bird
(turtle-dove, says my Dictionary) that<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>is used in slang Portugues to refer only to "female
brests", but I was<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>almost sure of once hearing it in Brasil with the meaning
Lucy clarified.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>2. This contains other lessons. Translators are often not
very good,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>especially if they don't know the subject they are trying
to traslate. And<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I have noticed often that, in such cases, they don't say
"I can't translate<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>that". They will chose - especially in oral
translation" - a "similar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>word". In this case with devastating effects... I
suposed that the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Brasilians, confused, tryed to give an answer... as they
could... So, I<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>suspect your conclusion, was not necessarily correct,
Joelle.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>3. But even if the translator knows the meaning of the
word he/she can<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>often do a "correct<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>word-translation" that is still useless.
"Role" translates into Portugues,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>as Lucy pointed out, as "papél", plural
"papéis" (the Spanish "papeles").<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The point is that "papel" also means
"paper", like in "a sheet of paper". I<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>wonder what the Brasilians would answer to this
possibility, namely if they<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>were low class and never heard of "papeis" in
this sense....<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>4. Contextual translation, done by someone that knows the
subject, would<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>understant the what should be translated was not
"roles" but "social roles"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>giving "papéis sociais" that can not, of course,
be confused with sheets of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>papers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>5. Now imagine what would happen if this was a
conversation between an Arab<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>and a Juif mediated by an American President, with the
help of a translator<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>without an "absolutely perfect knowledge" of
BOTH languages. Terrible, I<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>suspect.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>6. My conclusion - if you era "broadcasting" or
publishing a book, good<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>traslations can be useful<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>(like in the Brasilian translation of the User's Guide)..
But to mediate<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>"conversations", translations are NEVER a
replacement for bi-linguism.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>7: I think that people giving training in a foreign
language in a different<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>country, when that training must be mediated by a
translater, must always<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>ask very seriously what are the qualifications of the
translator in the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>subject of the training and not only the "translation
qualification" in<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>other subjects.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>8. I am sure that I could do a good translation of English
to Portuguese in<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>subjects like management or information systems. But I am
affraid to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>confess, Joelle, that I would be unable to transslate one
of your poems, as<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I don't understand poetry in English. And I could very
well think that a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>turtle-dove was a turtle of some special species...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Artur<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>*<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>*<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>==========================================================<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>view the archives of <a
href="mailto:oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu,">oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu,</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Visit:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><a
href="http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html">http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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