<div style="color:black;font: 10pt arial;">Birgitt, I guess I am about as confused as you are. Open Space (OST) is and has been free ever since. True, the book(s) were copyrighted, but that was just a matter of custom, so far as I was concerned. When Berrett-Koehler took over my books, being a commercial operation they covered their investments with copyright. As they should. The book WAS copyrighted. Open Space was not, could never be, and was as always FREE. Birthright of every creature on the planet. It's who we are, how we are, what we do ... rather like breathing. Can't patent, can't copy write, Of course you could just STOP (breathing).
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<div>Harrison<br>
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<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Birgitt Williams via OSList <oslist@lists.openspacetech.org><br>
To: World wide Open Space Technology email list <oslist@lists.openspacetech.org><br>
Cc: Birgitt Williams <birgitt@dalarinternational.com><br>
Sent: Wed, Jun 12, 2019 4:57 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [OSList] open message to Nick Martin<br>
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<div dir="ltr">Hi all,
<div>I would appreciate some clarification please.</div>
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<div>1.I remember taking/sponsoring OST training with Harrison as the trainer, seven times, in those early days of helping OST get better understood to those interested in better understanding it. I see on this list frequently comments about Harrison not doing training in OST and yet my lived experience was different...and I am much better off in oh so many ways for having had the benefit of that time with Harrison and the training. Have we recreated the story line to say that Harrison did not do training and why? the training was life changing and we learned OST, not some variation of OS.</div>
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<div>2. The books written by Harrison, both the original versions and the books thereafter published by Berrett-Kohler are all copyrighted. Of particular interest to me is that Open Space Technology:the User's Guide, is copyrighted. It is a wonderful handbook of how to go through the form of facilitating an OST meeting. Via this copyrighted book, Harrison made it possible to read the book and go ahead and follow what is said and have OST meetings. Does this not mean that via the copyrighting of the book, that the process of OST is copyrighted?</div>
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<div>3. Assuming that the copyrighting took place via copyrighting the User's Guide, what is it that is currently placed within Open Source etc? Is it only the definition of OST that is on the US OS Institute website and if so, what is the implication? I have read the footnote on that reference "
©2016 Harrison Owen and the Open Space Institute U.S. Offered for license under the Attribution Share-Alike license
of Creative Commons, accessible at <a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/legalcode">http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/legalcode</a> and also described in
summary form at <a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/">http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/</a>. By utilizing this Open Source OST Reference
Definition you acknowledge and agree that you have read and agree to be bound by the terms of the Attribution ShareAlike license of Creative Commons. The URL to the original must be included: <a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" href="http://osius.org/ost-reference-definition">http://osius.org/ost-reference-definition</a>". It seems to me that it is only this reference that is in the S-A Creative Commons.</div>
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<div>Clarification please.</div>
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<div>Birgitt<br clear="all">
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<div><span style="font-size:12.8px;"><b>Birgitt Williams</b></span></div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="yiv9274586328gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 5:03 AM Daniel Mezick via OSList <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" ymailto="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div>Greetings to All, </div>
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<div>I am very happy that Open Space Technology is now published under a truly open-source license. What this means in practical terms is that anyone can derive from OST and even commercialize that derivation, so long as two very important conditions are met: </div>
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<div>1. The derived work is **also** published and made freely available, free to the world, under that same CC-BY-SA (truly open-source) license, and</div>
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<div>2. The person creating the new work provides very clear and distinct attribution back to the source, in this case clearly referring-back to the link to the open-source OST Reference Definition and license per the terms of that license: </div>
<br style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);"><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color:purple;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);" href="http://osius.org/ost-reference-definition">http://osius.org/ost-reference-definition</a><br style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">
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<div>You may wonder where I stand on open source licensing. Or, maybe not. Probably not!</div>
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<div>But, just for the record, here is where I stand on open-source licensing for social technologies like OST:</div>
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<div><span style="color:rgb(30,55,71);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:700;">P</span><span style="color:rgb(30,55,71);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">rotocols for interactions, frameworks for organizing teams, and meeting designs are inherently social technologies. Social technologies have the potential to advance the progress and functioning of teams, communities and the wider society at large. Social technology can improve organizations, communities and even civilization itself. </span></div>
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<div style="margin:0px 0px 1.5em;padding:0px;color:rgb(30,55,71);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">For social technologies to rapidly advance human progress, they must be published in a way that allows for their free derivation, innovation and combination. The open source licensing of social technology allows this, and thereby encourages genuine and lasting human progress.</div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(30,55,71);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">Social technologies such as interaction protocols, organizing frameworks, and meeting designs carry with them the great potential to improve human conditions.</span><br style="color:rgb(30,55,71);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br style="color:rgb(30,55,71);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span style="color:rgb(30,55,71);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">Human progress is impeded when promising social technologies are closed to derivation and commercialization into new, innovative and useful forms, combinations and designs.</span><br style="color:rgb(30,55,71);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br style="color:rgb(30,55,71);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span style="color:rgb(30,55,71);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">Innovation and human progress is encouraged when social technologies are published in an open way, under a true open source license.</span><br style="color:rgb(30,55,71);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br style="color:rgb(30,55,71);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span style="color:rgb(30,55,71);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">The publication of promising social technology under open-to-innovate licensing arrangements represents a very large opportunity to rapidly accelerate human progress.</span></div>
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<div>In light of the foregoing, I plan to immediately incorporate a reference to open-source OST into my own designs, to get aligned 100% with this.</div>
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<div>I have developed some social technology that builds upon and in fact derives from Open Space Technology. Here they are: </div>
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<div>1. <a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" href="http://www.prime-os.com:">http://www.Prime-OS.com:</a> PRIME/OS, an Engagement Model. Prime/OS is published open-source.</div>
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<div>2. <a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" href="http://www.openspaceagility.com:">http://www.OpenSpaceAgility.com:</a> OPENSPACE AGILITY is also open-source because it based on and refers to open-source Prime/OS. OpenSpace Agility is published open-source per the terms of the Prime-OS license.</div>
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<div>What I plan to do in light of this OST Reference Definition is the following: </div>
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<div>1. Update the Prime/OS Reference Definition so that it derives from the OST Reference Definition on the proper way. I also plan to add the link from OSI-US to the definition of Prime/OS, and make it clear that Prime/OS is using OST and is based upon it. And that Prime/OS ***derives from** OST.</div>
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<div>REFERENCE LINKS:</div>
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<div>Here are some reference links for those who want to dig deeper on this subject of open licensing: </div>
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<div>Freedom Defined: </div>
<div><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" href="https://freedomdefined.org/Licenses/CC-BY-SA">https://freedomdefined.org/Licenses/CC-BY-SA</a></div>
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<div>Link to the CC-BY-SA license: </div>
<div><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/</a></div>
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<div>Link to Prime/OS Reference Definition (I plan to update this document soon): </div>
<div><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" href="https://openspaceagility.com/prime/download-prime/">https://openspaceagility.com/prime/download-prime/</a></div>
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<div>So, there you go, I am happy that OST is published under an open source license, and I hope anyone and everyone with some kind of derivation of Open Space Technology refers back to this license and publishes their derivations open and free.</div>
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<div>This is a big deal !</div>
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<div>I hope you find all of this interesting. </div>
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<div>Have a nice day!</div>
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<div>-Daniel </div>
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<div>On Jun 9, 2019, at 5:51 PM, Harrison Owen via OSList <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" ymailto="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">Well said!<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">Harrison<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>OSList [<a rel="noopener noreferrer" ymailto="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org">mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>]<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Barry Owen via OSList<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, June 9, 2019 7:41 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>World wide Open Space Technology email list<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>Barry Owen<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [OSList] open message to Nick Martin<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Harold - What you wrote is great. Thank you!<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Bhavish, I could copy and paste your comments @ Massacre of Open Space and send them to a group that does an annual event here in Nashville.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">This event began with me doing an Open Space event. I invited REALTORS to come together to talk about issues and opportunities we were facing as a direct result of the Economic Downward Spiral in 2008 which was devastating for many. Because this topic also affected all of the "Service Support" people we rely on during transactions (Lenders, Title Companies, Contractors, Inspectors, & etc), I invited them to come as sponsors. 24 of these sponsors paid $150 each for a table to display information about their business. This money paid all of the overhead, so the event was free for the REALTORS. I arranged these tables in a concentric circle around the Main Circle and invited the sponsors to attend as participants. This was an Open Space meeting about a very important issue with people from every conceivable Real Estate related business - 300 REALTORS attended, and the event was a huge success.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">The following year, I was queueing up a "2nd Annual" event when I was approached by a group of people who had the backing of the REALTOR Association. Based on the success of the event I facilitated, they decided to do it using BarCamp - NashvilleREBarcamp and scheduled their event to conflict with mine. They asked me join forces with them rather than having 2 different events. With reservation, I agreed, and the event was also a huge success (Although not Open Space) - 500 Participants - More "Traditional" arrangement for sponsors who paid more money to sponsor breakout spaces and were not, under any circumstances, allowed to do any promotion beyond their name on the breakout space.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Over the past 10 years, that event has grown and morphed into what you describe . . . and even worse. The 10th Annual was a couple months ago - Over 700 REALTORS registered . . . There were @ 30 "Experts" who flew in from all over the country to "teach" sessions. There were @ 35 sessions (I did one about "Operating a Brokerage in Open Space"). All of the sessions were scheduled before the doors opened. I was disappointed because I thought it could have been way better in Open Space Technology, but . . . <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">I decided it was better than nothing :-) As I went through the day, I noticed that, even though OST wasn't the process for the meeting . . . Open Space happened for many of the participants.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><u></u> <u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">My general observation is that Open Space happens at some level every time any group gathers . . . Having the meeting using OST simply increases the impact for more of the participants. So . . . <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><u></u> <u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Harrison Owen's mantra of "Just Open more Space" is happening every day as each of us is out there engaging important and complex issues and opportunities . . . even when it doesn't look like OST.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><u></u> <u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 3:58 PM Harold Shinsato via OSList <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" ymailto="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div class="yiv9274586328MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Very interesting conversation and attempts to describe OST!<br>
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I'm reading Nassim Nicholas Taleb's book, Anti-Fragile. It seems to me Open Space is antifragile.<br>
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The idea of antifragility goes beyond resilience. Life in general is antifragile. It doesn't just bounce back from set-backs. It actually gets stronger as it overcomes challenges and stress.<br>
<br>
Antifragility seems relevant in this conversation as it seems the more people try to document or describe Open Space, even with rather challenging inaccuracies, the stronger it gets. I like Liberating Structures. The 'min-specs' for OST seem accurate in the book and the website, even if it leaves out how much more powerful it gets in the "long form" (or at least more than 90 minutes). And it leaves out the need to get strong authorization from leaders. I love that it says it's not open space without the law of two feet. But the Liberating Structures 'min-specs' don't emphasize the importance of not generating topics ahead of time. I've unfortunately encountered rather large events claiming to be 'open space' where the participants either generated the topics in advance, or worse, didn't even get to generate the topics.<br>
<br>
The "Open Space" with-a-twist as described on<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="https://workshopbank.com/open-space-technology">https://workshopbank.com/open-space-technology</a><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>shows a nice picture and I hope it introduces more folks to Open Space Technology. For me at least, doing the agenda creation before the OST is an unconference trick, but it hugely diminishes the potential power of OST.<br>
<br>
For what it is worth - Harrison Owen may not have claimed any ownership rights of Open Space, but what he did do is ask us to share back what we learn as we practice Open Space. That should start by honoring and sharing our sources.<br>
<br>
Another way to reference back is a project the Open Space Institute U.S. did a several years ago with Harrison Owen's help. "Open Space Technology: The Reference Definition" which is Creative Commons Share and Adapt (cc by-sa) licensed. So feel free to reference it as you share-and-extend. Twisty or Straight!<br>
<br>
<a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="http://osius.org/ost-reference-definition">http://osius.org/ost-reference-definition</a><br>
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Regards,<br>
Harold<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">On 6/5/19 8:10 AM, Robin Muretisch, Facilitative Insights, LLC via OSList wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">For everyone, the Liberating Structures site has a handy “min specs” description of OST. Here’s the link: <span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="http://www.liberatingstructures.com/25-open-space-technology/">http://www.liberatingstructures.com/25-open-space-technology/</a>.<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Robin</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span style="font-family:Papyrus;"><br>
Robin D. H. Muretisch</span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Papyrus;">, CPF, MBA, CPA</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span style="font-family:Papyrus;">IAF Certified™ Professional Facilitator</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><u><span style="font-family:Papyrus;color:rgb(5,99,193);"><a rel="noopener noreferrer" ymailto="mailto:robin@facinsights.com" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="mailto:robin@facinsights.com"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193);">robin@facinsights.com</span></a></span></u><span style="font-family:Papyrus;"> | 770.371.5874 | <span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/robin-muretisch/"><span style="text-decoration:none;"><span><image001.jpg></span></span></a><u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="http://www.facinsights.com/"><span style="text-decoration:none;"><span><image002.jpg></span></span></a><u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><b>From:</b><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>OSList<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noopener noreferrer" ymailto="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org"><oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org></a><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Nick Martin via OSList<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, June 05, 2019 2:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>Marai Kiele<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noopener noreferrer" ymailto="mailto:genuine-contact@joyful-together.com" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="mailto:genuine-contact@joyful-together.com"><genuine-contact@joyful-together.com></a>; ost list international<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noopener noreferrer" ymailto="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org"><oslist@lists.openspacetech.org></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nick Martin<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noopener noreferrer" ymailto="mailto:nick@workshopbank.com" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="mailto:nick@workshopbank.com"><nick@workshopbank.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [OSList] open message to Nick Martin<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv9274586328MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Thanks for your open letter Marai. I'm always excited and willing to receive feedback.<br>
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As you'll remember over a year ago I opened up the content of this article for comments and input from this list in the form of a Google Doc.<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
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Such was the passion exhibited in the original thread I was eager and excited to receive your inputs. Unfortunately only two people replied though. I'm very grateful to both you and Keith Blundell for taking the time.<br>
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I must admit life took over and in my wait for more input other priorities took over. I'm happy to revisit it now though as I can feel the energy is back and I'd like to the right thing in the eyes of this excellent community.<br>
<br>
Here's the link -<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ufIsy0BQvIqlRUbW0FAyXHGV0IKw3VdDT8L91RIJJU8/edit?usp=sharing">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ufIsy0BQvIqlRUbW0FAyXHGV0IKw3VdDT8L91RIJJU8/edit?usp=sharing</a><br>
<br>
Please add your thoughts, comments and feedback and amend the article as best I can.<br>
<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">On 05/06/2019 01:53, Marai Kiele wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Hello Nick Martin,<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">I find myself tense in my belly after reading your newsletter today:<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536apple-tab-span"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif;color:rgb(10,10,10);background-color:rgb(254,254,254);"> <span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif;color:rgb(10,10,10);background-color:rgb(254,254,254);">I just wanted to share with you </span><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="https://t.dripemail2.com/c/eyJhY2NvdW50X2lkIjoiMjM3MTU2MiIsImRlbGl2ZXJ5X2lkIjoiNjc1OTQzNzE4MiIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd29ya3Nob3BiYW5rLmNvbS9vcGVuLXNwYWNlLXRlY2hub2xvZ3k_dXRtX3NvdXJjZT1kcmlwXHUwMDI2dXRtX21lZGl1bT1lbWFpbFx1MDAyNnV0bV9jYW1wYWlnbj1uZXctdG9vbC1vcGVuLXNwYWNlXHUwMDI2X19zPXFtZXdvcGZiZnpzMnBvY3ltZTRnIn0"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif;">a popular WorkshopBank tool</span></a><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif;color:rgb(10,10,10);"> you can start using with your clients right away. Let me know what you think.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">You suggest that the reader lets you know what they think. I choose to do that.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">I also choose to do that in the form of an open letter, as several months back you asked on the os-list for input to your description of the OST process for the Workshopbank.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">You introduced your version of „OST with a twist“, and there was a somewhat heated discussion on this list about it.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">I participated in both, revising and giving you feedback on your description (as requested) and discussing about „is something with such a twist still OST?“<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536apple-tab-span"> <span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Your twist was about giving the leaders control about the topics. <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Back then I used the analogy that you are mixing red wine with coca cola (which some people actually do and drink — I tried it out as a teenager).<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">And that calling such a beverage „red wine with a twist“ is an inaccurate representation of a) red wine and b) the taste that a consumer will experience.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">(side note: usually, this mix is done with red wine of poor quality)<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536apple-tab-span"> <span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536apple-tab-span"> <span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>In my analogy, OST is the red wine and controlling the process is the coke.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">In your description, you early on distinguish between OST and OST with a twist. I first appreciated you for making that distinction so upfront. <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Then I read what you wrote under:<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><b>If you’re following the traditional Open Space Process...</b><u></u><u></u></div>
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<div><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom:0in;"><li class="yiv9274586328MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-numbered-list-index">1</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul></div>
<div class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536thrv-styled-list-item" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.5in;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-no-delete">Gather your participants together and briefly explain how Open Space events work using Harrison Owen’s 1 Law and the Guiding Principles as appropriate. Traditionally you should do this with everyone in a circle around you<span style="color:rgb(255,145,255);"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>but you don’t necessarily have to.</span><span style="color:rgb(142,255,255);"> </span></span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom:0in;"><li class="yiv9274586328MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-numbered-list-index">2</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul></div>
<div class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536thrv-styled-list-item" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.5in;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-no-delete"><span style="color:rgb(255,145,255);">Ask participants to spend 10 minutes thinking through<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>if they have any issues they’d like to raise.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom:0in;"><li class="yiv9274586328MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-numbered-list-index">3</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul></div>
<div class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536thrv-styled-list-item" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.5in;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-no-delete"><span style="color:rgb(255,145,255);">If there is a general agreement that the issue has enough support and passion behind it invite the issue owner to add the issue to the schedule.</span></span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom:0in;"><li class="yiv9274586328MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-numbered-list-index">4</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul></div>
<div class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536thrv-styled-list-item" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.5in;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-no-delete">Once all issues have been added invite the participants to sign-up for the sessions they’re planning on attending (they are free to change their mind later if they want to).</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom:0in;"><li class="yiv9274586328MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-numbered-list-index">5</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul></div>
<div class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536thrv-styled-list-item" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.5in;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-no-delete">Your sessions start.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">There is much more on this page that, as I see it, is NOT "the traditional Open Space Process“. I am giving just some further examples:<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="https://workshopbank.com/open-space-technology">https://workshopbank.com/open-space-technology</a><u></u><u></u></div>
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<div><h2 style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:18pt;font-family:New serif;">Process for a Session<u></u><u></u></h2></div>
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<div><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom:0in;"><li class="yiv9274586328MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-numbered-list-index">1</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul></div>
<div class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536thrv-styled-list-item" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.5in;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-no-delete">Each session should be a round group of chairs (no table in the middle)<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color:rgb(255,145,255);">with preferably one facilitator to lead the discussion and a scribe on the flip-chart.</span></span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom:0in;"><li class="yiv9274586328MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-numbered-list-index">2</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul></div>
<div class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536thrv-styled-list-item" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.5in;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-no-delete">A session starts with the issue owner welcoming and thanking the group for coming and then giving a description of the issue as they see it.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom:0in;"><li class="yiv9274586328MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-numbered-list-index">3</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul></div>
<div class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536thrv-styled-list-item" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.5in;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-no-delete"><span style="color:rgb(255,145,255);">The facilitator then leads the discussion</span><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>inviting people to give their input at their request.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom:0in;"><li class="yiv9274586328MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-numbered-list-index">4</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul></div>
<div class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536thrv-styled-list-item" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.5in;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-no-delete"><span style="color:rgb(255,145,255);">The scribe records the discussion on flip chart paper making sure</span><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>to mark Issues, Ideas, Questions (that can’t be answered today) & Actions.<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color:rgb(255,145,255);">When a flip is finished they should tear it off</span><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>and put it in the center of the circle or on a nearby wall for people in the group to see.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom:0in;"><li class="yiv9274586328MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-numbered-list-index">5</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul></div>
<div class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536thrv-styled-list-item" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.5in;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-no-delete">Allow people to leave and arrive as they see fit though<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color:rgb(255,145,255);">don’t allow them to interrupt or slow-down your progress.</span><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span>It is a new arrival’s responsibility to catch-up with the discussion using the flip chart outputs no matter how high up or important they are.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom:0in;"><li class="yiv9274586328MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-numbered-list-index">6</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul></div>
<div class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536thrv-styled-list-item" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.5in;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536tcb-no-delete"><span style="color:rgb(255,145,255);">When the issue looks like it has been covered and there are no more inputs coming from your group thank them for their time and invite them to join other groups if the session time is not over.</span></span><u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">To me, calling this description "the traditional Open Space Process“ I wonder if<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536apple-tab-span"> <span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>- I am totally rigid and should just loosen up to the variations of OST<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536apple-tab-span"> <span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>- You have never experienced a traditional Open Space Process<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536apple-tab-span"> <span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>- You just don’t care about the originality and instead rather cater to business needs of controlled processes that limit self-organisation<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536apple-tab-span"> <span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>- I misremember all my trainings with Harrison Owen, Michael M Pannwitz, Michael Pannwitz jr, Joe Töpfer, and last but not least Birgitt Williams. <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980gmail-m-8642193814332368536apple-tab-span"> <span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>- or… ?<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">I totally don’t get it. <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">I don’t like what you are doing.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">I also dislike that you market this description of „the traditional Open Space Process“ as „a popular WorkshopBank Tool“.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">I feel sad when I imagine people following your description and spreading the word that „this is the traditional way of doing OST“.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Using my former analogy: <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">I imagine what you are doing is like a beverage shop introducing someone who has never tasted a good red wine to that beverage.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Because this person usually drink coke, they are being given red wine mixed with coke (to match their taste buds).<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">And then they are being told, „this is a traditional Cabernet Sauvignon“.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">I want you to revise your description and move your adaptions away from "the original version" to „OST with a twist“.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Are you willing to do that?<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Probably even better: Call it „…………….. - a process partly inspired by Open Space Technology“ <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">I look forward to your response,<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Marai<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/marai-kiele/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/marai-kiele/</a><u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="https://about.me/maraikiele">https://about.me/maraikiele</a><u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> <u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><u></u> <u></u></div>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;">_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;">OSList mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;">To post send emails to <a rel="noopener noreferrer" ymailto="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;">To unsubscribe send an email to <a rel="noopener noreferrer" ymailto="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;">To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;"><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;">Past archives can be viewed here: <a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;" href="http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org">http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre></blockquote>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"><u></u> <u></u></div>
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<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">--<span class="yiv9274586328gmail-m_-8657627961938750980Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Harold Shinsato<br>
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