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Greeting All, Greeeetings Michael,<br>
<br>
<br>
Wow. Michael. Seriously. You can really type (and talk) a blue
streak. You know? You're wearing me out...<br>
<br>
...no no, just kidding. I'm not QUITE exhausted yet...I've had time
to rest up! <br>
<br>
So, by all means keep it coming. I'm rested and ready!<br>
<br>
<br>
....Now: A couple things do stand out here:<br>
<br>
<br>
1. The Tyranny of Inquiry? <br>
================<br>
Michael, you say:<br>
"i notice that you said in your first message that you find this
"extremely interesting" <b>but you've yet to say why.</b>"<br>
<br>
Wait. Stop right there. <br>
<br>
Earlier, you ask: <br>
<div>"<b>Is it not some kind of tyranny</b> we all attempt over and
over again <b>when we expect and insist that the world explain
itself to/for us?</b>"<br>
</div>
<br>
(brief pause of silence here, for an ironic, even paradoxical
effect....)<br>
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Seriously. Inquiry is good! There is no tyranny to be found in it.<br>
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I like the essay because it speaks to a really, really, important
topic, namely: <br>
<br>
The various problems with informal authority-distribution, inside
groups that devalue "structure," or value other things -over-
"structure."<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I also like this essay because it feels very timely and pertinent
with respect to Pernilla Luttropp's recent (and important) post on
decision-making, entitled: "An invitation to future invitations to
WOSONOS."<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
2. Some Disconnected Dots?<br>
==================<br>
<br>
You express:<br>
<br>
"i'm having some trouble connecting "elites," "movement,"
"authorization" and some other terms in the essay to my experience
in open space and on the list. the essay seems to want to fix a
problem, <b>but one that's not familiar to me, at least not as a
sort of thing to be solved."</b><br>
<br>
<br>
I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, Michael, that you have completely
examined this essay. <br>
<br>
<br>
To be clear: You are not familiar with <i>any</i> of the many
problems (not even one) described in this essay? <br>
<br>
If you are familiar with any of these, then you see them as <i>"not
as a sort of thing to be solved?"</i><br>
<br>
(For the record, the term "authorization" does not appear anywhere
in this essay. The term "authority" does appear 5 times.)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Now: We've recently had exactly the type of concerns the essay
addresses, voiced right here on OSLIST recently. <br>
<br>
You yourself are a heavy contributor Pernilla Luttropp's post, "An
invitation to future invitations to WOSONOS." <br>
<br>
<br>
Here is a part of that, provided for convenience (I copied this
verbatim from the post, with my emphasis added...)<br>
<br>
<br>
<BEGIN><br>
<i>"At the inspiring WOSONOS in Krakow there were some learning
conversations on how this community goes about when expressing and
accepting</i><em> invitations from countries/places to host the
upcoming WOSONOSes. In the big circle <b>there were voices that
expressed some confusion and discomfort </b>with the process...</em><i><br>
</i><i><br>
</i><em>"...<b>There seems to be something unclear</b> about the
"tradition" <b>on how to get information about who is inviting
and why. </b>If that information were <b>transparent from the
very start </b>of the WOSONOS, it might enable more dialogue
with the inviting hosts and between the hosts."<br>
<END><br>
<br>
</em> <br>
This expression by Pernilla is about how decisions. About how
future-WOSONOS-venues are identified, developed, and then
authorized.<br>
<br>
This issue does pertain quite directly, I think, to the essay.
Right? I wonder if others reading agree, or disagree. <br>
<br>
Either way, it is always great when a new voice shows up!<br>
<br>
Here is the specific part of the essay that clearly pertains:
emphasis added...<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<BEGIN><br>
<big>For everyone to have the opportunity to be involved in a given
group and to participate in its activities <b>the structure must
be explicit, not implicit. The rules of decision-making must be
open and available to everyone, and this can happen only if they
are formalized.</b> This is not to say that formalization of a
structure of a group will destroy the informal structure. It
usually doesn't. But it does hinder the informal structure from
having predominant control and make available some means of
attacking it if the people involved are not at least responsible
to the needs of the group at large. </big><em><br>
<END></em><br>
<br>
<br>
I wonder if anyone else (besides Michael) thinks that these two
items, what Pernilla is saying and what this essay is saying, are in
no way related?<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/7/15 4:48 PM, Michael Herman
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAD8j=QGoj18Xb68128FOZ=Cvt559_ipKx965UTMiCkfjUKro2Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">wasn't actually intended as personal feedback,
daniel. was meant to be a comment on the territory we all
share, even when we might, any of us, feel in the moment like an
outsider, that disorientation is actually a part of being
included in the experience of open space.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>as for the essay, i guess i'm still a little unclear about
the connection. open space doesn't strike me as any sort of
striving for structurelessness. and i've seen both formal and
informal structure arise in open space. harrison's term in
his "millennial organization" book and what i've seen happen
is "appropriate levels of structure and control." </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>the oslist doesn't seem structureless, either. there are
all kinds of limiting and supporting structures that make it
possible. and then there are the customs we've developed,
like it's common and desired for people to reply to the whole
list with answers to questions, and even personal stories and
sidebars, rather than always taking that stuff to private
emails. much of the informal stuff was captured in chris
corrigan's oslist faq's i mentioned earlier. and these things
change. the address changed. the admin changed. the
archives moved but survived, thanks to harold. now we allow
attachments. the archives were private and later became
publicly searchable. new people show up all the time, and
join in. the user's non-guide (ebook) captured one great
moment in joining when julie smith showed up very new to all
of this, asked some great questions, and sparked all kinds of
conversation on many important dimensions of the practice. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>maybe your definition of structure will also define
structureless. i guess i don't know what ever could be
structureless, in line wiht chris' story... except that
everything's moving, it's all flow, as harrison says. but
maybe those two stories aren't at odds, either... some bits
are just more dense or more slowly flowing than others, but
it's all flow in the end. is flow structureless? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>is the tyranny of structurelessness just to say that
everything's moving, and moving on, even the parts we really
like, and that can make for some difficult experiences... that
would also be nobody's fault, but just part of the shared
condition? uncomfortable in spots, to be sure, but nobody's
and no system's "fault" or "responsibility?" </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>as mentioned earlier, OS and the circle don't make people
equal. some will always be better, faster, stronger, more
attractive, more connected than others. is thta a problem to
be solved? i'm having some trouble connecting "elites,"
"movement," "authorization" and some other terms in the essay
to my experience in open space and on the list. the essay
seems to want to fix a problem, but one that's not familiar to
me, at least not as a sort of thing to be solved. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>why is this essay important for you? how does it inform
your understanding and practice of open space? or your
participation on the oslist? are we a movement? are you an
elite? is open space at risk of being taken over? help me
make the connection(s)? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>i notice that you said in your first message that you find
this "extremely interesting" but you've yet to say why.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div>
<div class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> <br>
--<br>
<br>
Michael Herman<br>
Michael Herman Associates<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://MichaelHerman.com" target="_blank">http://MichaelHerman.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org" target="_blank">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Daniel
Mezick <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dan@newtechusa.net" target="_blank">dan@newtechusa.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div> Yo Michael, <br>
<br>
The whole "story-context-is-missing" thing is really just
a sidebar to the important (and much wider) issues around
authority. <br>
<br>
These authority-issues are raised by the subject essay,
"The Tyranny of Structurelessness." What a great essay!<br>
<br>
Story-context is a really, really important topic though,
especially if "missing-context" does have at least the
potential to evoke feelings of exclusion, in at least some
members of the list.<br>
<br>
Regarding some of the things you are saying:<br>
<br>
You say, "Exclusion is the illusion. A little bit of
errant and temporary mental structure."<br>
<br>
I say, my current belief is that my feelings are not
illusion whatsoever, nor are they error. Rather they are
real and valid, human emotions. They are emotions which,
when experienced fully, are in fact an essential aspect of
living well.<br>
<br>
<br>
You say, "...I notice the word tyranny again in the
subject. Is it not some kind of tyranny we all attempt
over and over again when we expect and insist that the
world explain itself to/for us?"<br>
<br>
I say, my current belief is that inquiry is not simply
important, it is in fact essential. Inquiry is good.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
In any event, and as always, I do appreciate your
feedback. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I am now keen to get back to the main topic ! <br>
<br>
I wonder how we might, in the here and now, go about
defining the term "structure," for purposes of further
discussing issues raised by this essay with much more
clarity. <br>
<br>
That's a question I'm keen to explore with you, and the
other members of this list, inside this thread.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Daniel <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.Prime-OS.com"
target="_blank">http://www.Prime-OS.com</a>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 10/6/15 11:56 AM, Michael Herman wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Yes and Daniel, there are the
words of a story and the feeling/meaning of it. I
considered writing a longer message in the telling
of this story, but I wanted to transmit as much of
the spirit/experience of it as I could.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ralph didn't offer any explanation of his
observation that morning. He did just like I said,
got up in a morning news circle, it was an
OTgathering as I noted but that doesn't matter, it
was open space and morning news. He said his piece
and sat down. The experience for me, and others I
have learned only later, was stunning and
disorienting, for sure. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I thought to honor and convey this
experience through some measure of similar brevity
in my retelling. Maybe this is what you picked up
on. The disorienting magic of Ralph's moment. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are moments in open space of surprise and
disconnect, maybe frustration or confusion or
misunderstanding or disorientation and even
disappointment that arise in open space. This we
all know and have experienced. This, to me, is not
so much a thing to be solved but the nature of the
territory. It just is. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
Ralph never did explain his statement, as far as I
know. He had something to say and he said it. That
was his only job. After that, each of us had to
figure out for ourselves what, if anything, to do
with his story, to decide if it was wisdom or
wisecrack. The storyteller, I think, has only the
responsibility for finding and sharing what's true
for him/her. The rest is up to us.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Maybe this points to the learning and
challenge that we all have in open space, namely
learning to trust more and more that we already
are always included in a flow that is bigger and
deeper or whatever than we can see or understand
or articulate sometimes. Exclusion is the
illusion. A little bit of errant and temporary
mental structure. Discomfort is not a problem (and
can't be solved by anyone!); it's a trail marker.
Which is to say about exclusion and missing out,
"welcome!" The good news is, and the bad news is,
you're in! And, it's all still happening Now. <span></span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As I scroll up to send tha now, I notice the
word tyranny again in the subject. Is it not some
kind of tyranny we all attempt over and over again
when we expect and insist that the world explain
itself to/for us? Is this not something of our
central challenge, something all of us work with?
The edge of open space is an end of comfortable,
conventional understanding? Or something?<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div><br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015, Daniel Mezick
via OSList <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org"
target="_blank">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div> Hi Harrison,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the tips on how to search
OSLIST and Google, etc. I did do those
things actually. However, that's a bit
of an effort, especially searching the
OSLIST archives. I guess I could
eventually pick up OSLIST culture that
way, little by little. I suppose an
earnest person with loads of time could
sift through OSLIST archives to figure
this culture out. The hard way. <br>
<br>
However, like the SPIRIT book teaches,
there is nothing like a good story to
convey culture. The kind of story with a
beginning, a middle and an end.<br>
<br>
I notice that, when you are the one
referring to a certain OS-mythos story,
you usually tend to include the short
list of pertinent details, the essential
details that provide the essential
context, so the reader can follow along,
and engage.<br>
<br>
And I'm always grateful for that, as it
helps me to follow along, and get what
you are referring to, and more fully
understand the story, and feel oddly
included in the story. <br>
<br>
<br>
Earlier, I express how not having the
context tends to (for me) arouse
feelings of: exclusion, cluelessness,
and a general lack of membership in
whatever "historic-OS-mythos-episode" is
being referred to. Sort of an "out
group" feeling. You know? Sometimes, I
wonder what the poster might be thinking
by posting random fragments of a "you
had to be there" kind of story. Other
times, I wonder if other readers are
also feeling these feelings. Or if it is
"just me."<br>
<br>
And so: I am very grateful for your
stories, in part because you include the
pertinent details, and in so doing, make
me (for one) feel included. <br>
<br>
So thanks for including the context in
your stories. It makes them fun, and
easy to follow. OSLIST culture certainly
has it's quirks, and for me, your
stories make this culture easier to
figure out, and navigate, and enjoy.<br>
<br>
<br>
Getting back to the Tyranny of
Structurelessness: <br>
<br>
Do you think these 3 assertions by the
author are actually true? Do these ideas
have legs?<br>
<ul>
<li><i><span lang="ES-TRAD">This
hegemony can be so easily
established because the idea of
"structurelessness" does not
prevent the formation of
informal structures, only formal
ones.</span></i></li>
<li><span><span><span></span></span></span><i><span
lang="ES-TRAD">For everyone to
have the opportunity to be
involved in a given group and to
participate in its activities,
the structure must be explicit,
not implicit. </span></i></li>
<li><i><span lang="ES-TRAD">It is this
informal structure, particularly
in Unstructured groups, which
forms the basis for elites.</span></i></li>
</ul>
<br>
Daniel <br>
<br>
<div>On 10/6/15 10:04 AM, Harrison Owen
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Dan,
Google can often help. <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman">https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman</a></a>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>ho</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>From:</span></b><span>
OSList [<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org">mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a></a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Daniel
Mezick via OSList<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October
05, 2015 4:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Harrison Owen;
World wide Open Space
Technology email list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [OSList]
The Tyranny of
Structurelessness</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Howdy Harrison,<br>
<br>
Thanks for describing the context
of the Ralph Copleman story- I'm
very thankful for that info.<br>
<br>
I notice that, lots of times here,
there are references made to
notable OST episodes, and
situations from times past... <br>
<br>
...the "OST-mythos" as it were. <br>
<br>
These mythical stories often have
me wondering what I missed, and
what I might now be missing.
(Being clueless as I am.) <br>
<br>
I'm sure these story-fragment
postings are not posted with
intent to exclude anyone, or to be
discourteous, or unkind. More
like: some good old basic
camaraderie is taking place
between some old friends.<br>
<br>
Still: Do these
"inside-story-fragments" on OSLIST
tend to evoke feelings of
exclusion in readers who were <i>not</i>
there at the time? <br>
<br>
Not sure. <br>
<br>
<CONFESSION><br>
<br>
As for me, personally, I sometimes
find myself experiencing curiously
odd feelings of exclusion, when a
told-fragment of an old OST-mythos
story lacks explicit context. So I
can follow the story, you know?
The terms "outsider" or "clueless"
or "not in the story" describe
these feelings fairly well. "Not
invited?"<br>
<br>
I sometimes wonder if some of the
hundreds of <i>other</i> members
of OSLIST ever feel this way...or
if it is "just me." <br>
<br>
</CONFESSION><br>
<br>
Daniel <br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
On 10/4/15 2:59 PM, Harrison
Owen via OSList wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>â</span><span>€œEverything</span><span>
is moving.â</span><span>€ Â
.... Michael -- I remember
that moment very</span><span>
well. And Dan, Iâ</span><span>€™m
not sure the context, etc,
would help</span><span> very
much. But just for the record
the odd phrase popped out at
one of the International
Symposia on Organization
Transformation which happened
to be taking place at a small
college south of Seattle. I
have no idea why Ralph said
what he did, and Iâ</span><span>€™m
not sure Ralph did either. But
then again</span><span> a lot
of marvelous stuff seems to
burst out with no obvious
logic train. Indeed it may be
that the lack of logic train
enables the thought?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Whatever
the genesis, the phrase
wandered about my head for
some time, quite unattached,
and it also happened that I
was working my way slowly
through one of the
masterpieces of 20<sup>th</sup>
century western philosophy
when a fuzzy connection began
to form. The work was that of
Alfred North Whitehead, and
the title: â</span><span>€œProcess
and Reality.†I’ve been
through the</span><span> book
probably 4-5 times, and I am
frank to confess that I donâ</span><span>€™t
think I really understand</span><span>
it. But then again Iâ</span><span>€™ve</span><span>
heard a number of people
with much greater credentials,
tenure, etc â</span><span>€“
say the same thing. But I did
get that it</span><span> had
something to do with, â</span><span>€œEverything
is moving.†And</span><span>
the more I thought and read,
the more I felt that the good
philosopher had made a small
mistake on his title. It
shouldnâ</span><span>€™t be
“Process</span><span> <i>and</i>
Reality,â</span><span>€ but
rather</span><span> â</span><span>€œProcess</span><span>
<b>is</b> Reality.â</span><span>€
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Now,
Anna Caroline we come to â</span><span>€œstructure,â€
or perhaps I</span><span>
should say the fallacy of
Structure? Yes I know â</span><span>€“
we’</span><span>ve all been
taught that structure is the
precursor, the â</span><span>€œdeterminatorâ€
of everything. My face looks
as it does</span><span>
because of my bone structure.
My life proceeds the way it
does because of my social
structure. My business works
as it does because of the
organizational structure. And
of course, meetings happen the
way they do because of meeting
structure, which apparently is
the prime domain of â</span><span>€œfacilitators.â€
And even if we hadn’t been</span><span>
â</span><span>€œtaught†all
this, the primacy of structure
would appear</span><span> to
be blatantly obvious â</span><span>€“
as plain as the nose on your</span><span>
face. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Unfortunately,
it does seem to turn out that
sometimes the blatantly
obvious is not necessarily so.
For example just looking at
things it is pretty clear that
the world is flat, or at the
least bumpy flat. And any fool
can see that we are the center
of it all â</span><span>€“
Sun, moon, and stars whiz
around us. </span><span> But
when we think about it, as we
have been doing for the last
500-600 years, the obvious
isnâ</span><span>€™t so
obvious.</span><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>It is
reasonable to ask what would
start to make us think
differently â</span><span>€“
to the point that we begin to
question the</span><span>
obvious, and even come to see
things in a different way?
Taking a leap, I will suggest
that it all begins with the
perception of anomaly. Things
just donâ</span><span>€™t make
sense. O</span><span>ur eyes
tell us one thing... but????
And then we start making up
stories to explain the
apparently unexplainable. We
imagine different ways of
looking at things so that the
nonsensical makes sense. Some
of those stories get pretty
strange, but if they actually
work â</span><span>€“ that is
to say, help</span><span> us
to see in new and useful ways
â</span><span>€“ that’s
great</span><span>!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>There
is, of course, a proper term
for the activity I have been
describing. It is called
Theory Building. And for
whatever it is worth, â</span><span>€œtheoryâ€
comes from the G</span><span>reek
â</span><span>€œ</span><i><span>theoreinâ</span></i><i><span>€
</span></i><span> â</span><span>€“
to see. In a word, theories
are ways of looking at</span><span>
things â</span><span>€“ likely
stories you might say.</span><span>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Now, at
long last (too long?) we come
to the odd story I was
starting to tell, to the
effect that Structure is only
a figment of our imagination,
a flash frame of a moment gone
by. Interesting, and helpful
under some circumstances...
but always partial and in a
sense illusory. Whatâ</span><span>€™s</span><span>
â</span><span>€œreallyâ€
happening is all flow.
Everything is moving –</span><span>
Thatâ</span><span>€™s
Ralph’s story, and I guess
it is </span><span>mine too.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>So how
did I get to such a weird
condition? It was all about
anomaly â</span><span>€“ more
particularly, the anomaly of
Open Space.</span><span>
Everything that I had ever
learned told me that it could
not work. Unfortunately it did
(work) â</span><span>€“ and
not just once, but</span><span>
every time, hundreds of
thousands of times. Something
was definitely weird. It
seemed to me that I had to
re-consider all those things I
thought I had learned,
beginning with the basics...
such things as Structure.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Common
sense would say that Open
Space works because we somehow
created a structure that
enabled it to work. Thatâ</span><span>€™s
the</span><span> way things
get done, or so I had been
taught. But thatâ</span><span>€™s</span><span>
not the way things happened in
Open Space. Structure emerged
along the way and only
momentarily. Worse yet it
(structure) seemed to have
little to do with the obvious
power, connections,
creativity.... all of which
created structures, and passed
them by. And actually it
always seemed to me that the â</span><span>€œstructuresâ€
I “saw†existed only
because I</span><span> wanted
to see them â</span><span>€“
or perhaps that I “shouldâ€
see</span><span> them. But
they were only momentary
wisps, figments â</span><span>€“
never</span><span> to be
mistaken for what was really
going on. Or so Iâ</span><span>€™ve</span><span>
been thinking.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Harrison</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>From:</span></b><span>
OSList [<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org">mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a></a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael
Herman via OSList<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday,
October 03, 2015 6:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> JL Walker; World
wide Open Space Technology
email list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [OSList]
The Tyranny of
Structurelessness</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Â </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">you remind
me, harrison, of one morning
news session years ago,
somewhere, probably OT...
where ralph copleman walked to
the center of the circle and
announced, all serious and
mischievous at the same time,
"it's all moving!" Â </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Â </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">then put
the stick down and went back
to his seat. </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Â <br>
--<br>
<br>
Michael Herman<br>
Michael Herman
Associates<br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://MichaelHerman.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://MichaelHerman.com">http://MichaelHerman.com</a></a><br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a></a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Â </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat,
Oct 3, 2015 at 1:47 PM, JL
Walker via OSList <<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a></a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I
was thinking that
maybe the antidote to
the eventual tyranny
of structurelessness
is to open space,
again and again, until
true democracy can
emerge.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Juan
Luis</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Â </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
lang="ES">De:</span></b><span
lang="ES"> OSList
[mailto:<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a></a>]
<b>En nombre de </b>Rosa
Zubizarreta via OSList<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b>
sábado, 03 de octubre
de 2015 12:19<br>
<b>Para:</b> Daniel
Mezick; World wide
Open Space Technology
email list<br>
<b>Asunto:</b> Re:
[OSList] The Tyranny
of Structurelessness</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">Â </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">Hi
Daniel,</span></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">Yes,
this is a key
piece... I see
it as very
similar in
some ways to
what Ken
Wilber wrote
later, </span></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">about
the "shadow
side of the
green meme".
(Each meme has
its own
shadow, as
well as its
own gift...)</span></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">So,
I love
"green". I
love circles,
I love
non-hierarchy,
etc. <br>
And, part of
the "shadow
side of the
green meme" is
how
ideologically
anti-structure
it can
become... </span></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">to
the point
where some
people may not
even agree
that OST does,
in fact, offer
a very simple
and effective
structure.</span></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">By
way contrast,
think of a
situation
where group of
people (who
don't know
about OST,
and/or, who
are having a
power struggle
around "which
process to
use",
and/or.... )
might easily
spending a
whole weekend
arguing <i>about
</i>"how to
self-organize
ourselves"...
with a great
deal more pain
and
frustration
and a great
deal less
value.</span></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">whereas,
instead, IF
someone knows
about OST,
and, a clear
invitation has
been extended,
and, there is
enough
trust/suspension
of disbelief
so that
participants
are willing to
enter into
that format, <br>
<br>
then, we end
up with a very
simple and
elegant
structure that
allows people
to
self-organize
beautifully....
</span></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">at
least that's
how i see it!
:-)</span></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">with
all best
wishes,</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">Rosa</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">Â </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD"><br>
</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
lang="ES-TRAD">Rosa
Zubizarreta</span></i></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><i><span
lang="ES-TRAD">Developing
Participatory
and
Co-intelligent
Leadership<br>
Author of <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.conflict2creativity.com"
target="_blank"><b>From
Conflict to
Creative
Collaboration</b></a></span></i></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><i><span
lang="ES-TRAD">For
more resources
and learning
opportunities,
visit<br>
<b><a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.DiaPraxis.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.DiaPraxis.com">www.DiaPraxis.com</a></a></b></span></i></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">Â </span></p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">On
Sat, Oct 3,
2015 at 9:26
AM, Daniel
Mezick via
OSList <<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a></a>>
wrote:</span></p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD">THE
TYRANNY of
STRUCTURELESSNESS<br>
by Jo Freeman
aka Joreen<br>
<br>
I find this
essay
extremely
interesting. I
hope you do,
too. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Here is a
pertinent
quote, from
the essay:<br>
"...</span><i><span
lang="ES-TRAD">the
idea of
"structurelessness"
does not
prevent the
formation of
informal
structures,
only formal
ones."<br>
<br>
</span></i><span
lang="ES-TRAD"><br>
Circa 1970.
Context: the
women's
movement.
Quick summary
of the main
points: from
the essay...</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span>ï‚·<span>
</span></span></span><i><span
lang="ES-TRAD">During
the years in
which the
women's
liberation
movement has
been taking
shape, a great
emphasis has
been placed on
what are
called
leaderless,
structureless
groups as the
main -- if not
sole --
organizational
form of the
movement. </span></i></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span>ï‚·<span>
</span></span></span><i><span
lang="ES-TRAD">The
idea of
"structurelessness,"
however, has
moved from a
healthy
counter to
those
tendencies, to
becoming a
goddess in its
own right.</span></i></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span>ï‚·<span>
</span></span></span><i><span
lang="ES-TRAD">Contrary
to what we
would like to
believe, there
is no such
thing as a
structureless
group. </span></i></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span>ï‚·<span>
</span></span></span><i><span
lang="ES-TRAD">This
means that to
strive for a
structureless
group is as
useful, and as
deceptive, as
to aim at an
"objective"
news story,
"value-free"
social
science, or a
"free"
economy. A
"laissez
faire" group
is about as
realistic as a
"laissez
faire"
society; the
idea becomes a
smokescreen
for the strong
or the lucky
to establish
unquestioned
hegemony over
others. </span></i></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span>ï‚·<span>
</span></span></span><i><span
lang="ES-TRAD">This
hegemony can
be so easily
established
because the
idea of
"structurelessness"
does not
prevent the
formation of
informal
structures,
only formal
ones. </span></i></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span>ï‚·<span>
</span></span></span><i><span
lang="ES-TRAD">For
everyone to
have the
opportunity to
be involved in
a given group
and to
participate in
its
activities,
the structure
must be
explicit, not
implicit. </span></i></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span>ï‚·<span>
</span></span></span><i><span
lang="ES-TRAD">It
is this
informal
structure,
particularly
in
Unstructured
groups, which
forms the
basis for
elites.</span></i></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD"><br>
<br>
Just in case
you have not
yet
encountered
the full text
of this essay,
here it is: <br>
<br>
THE TYRANNY of
STRUCTURELESSNESS<br>
by Jo Freeman
aka Joreen<br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm">http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm</a></a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Daniel <br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.OpenSpaceAgility.com/about"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.OpenSpaceAgility.com/about">http://www.OpenSpaceAgility.com/about</a></a><br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.DanielMezick.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.DanielMezick.com">http://www.DanielMezick.com</a></a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:203%20915%207248" target="_blank">203 915 7248</a></span></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="ES-TRAD"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Â </p>
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</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
<br>
</p>
<p>Daniel Mezick, President</p>
<p>New Technology Solutions Inc.</p>
<p><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28203%29%20915%207248"
value="+12039157248"
target="_blank">(203) 915 7248</a>
(cell)</p>
<p><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/" target="_blank">Bio</a></span><span>.
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/blog/"
target="_blank"><span>Blog</span></a>.
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/"
target="_blank"><span>Twitter</span></a>.</span><span><span>Â </span></span></p>
<p><span>Examine my new book:</span><span><span>Â
</span></span><span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/"
target="_blank"><span>The
Culture Game </span></a></span><span>:
Tools for the Agile Manager</span><span>.</span></p>
<p>Explore Agile Team <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/"
target="_blank"><span>Training</span></a>
and <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/"
target="_blank"><span>Coaching.</span></a></p>
<p>Explore the <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/user-groups/ma/"
target="_blank"><span>Agile
Boston </span></a>Community.<span>Â </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div>-- <br>
<p>Daniel Mezick, President</p>
<p>New Technology Solutions Inc.</p>
<p><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28203%29%20915%207248"
value="+12039157248"
target="_blank">(203) 915 7248</a>
(cell)</p>
<p><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/"
target="_blank">Bio</a></span><span>.
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/blog/"
target="_blank"><span>Blog</span></a>.
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/"
target="_blank"><span>Twitter</span></a>.<span> </span></span></p>
<p><span>Examine my new book:<span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/"
target="_blank"><span>The
Culture Game </span></a></span><span>:
Tools for the Agile Manager</span><span>.</span></p>
<p>Explore Agile Team <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/"
target="_blank"><span>Training</span></a>
and <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/"
target="_blank"><span>Coaching.</span></a></p>
<p>Explore the <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/"
target="_blank"><span>Agile Boston
</span></a>Community.<span> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div> <br>
--<br>
<br>
Michael Herman<br>
Michael Herman Associates<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://MichaelHerman.com"
target="_blank">http://MichaelHerman.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org"
target="_blank">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div>-- <br>
<p>Daniel Mezick, President</p>
<p>New Technology Solutions Inc.</p>
<p><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28203%29%20915%207248"
value="+12039157248" target="_blank">(203) 915
7248</a> (cell)</p>
<p><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/"
target="_blank">Bio</a></span><span>. <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/blog/"
target="_blank"><span>Blog</span></a>. <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/"
target="_blank"><span>Twitter</span></a>.<span> </span></span></p>
<p><span>Examine my new book:<span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/"
target="_blank"><span>The Culture Game </span></a></span><span>:
Tools for the Agile Manager</span><span>.</span></p>
<p>Explore Agile Team <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/"
target="_blank"><span>Training</span></a> and <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/"
target="_blank"><span>Coaching.</span></a></p>
<p>Explore the <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/"
target="_blank"><span>Agile Boston </span></a>Community.<span> </span></p>
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