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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>Hi all<br><br>On where the replies go.<br><br>I have noticed that my email automatively defaults to the postee's e-address. I have to cut and paste the open space address into the 'To' for it to be posted to this list. This situation may be the same for others. I tested my theory on this email with the 'reply' and 'reply all' functions with the same result that the reply would have gone direct to Daniel if I had proceded.<br><br>I don't know whether this issue is related to my email setup or OsList's.<br><br>Kind regards<br><br>Anne<br><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">To: oslist@lists.openspacetech.org<br>Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 19:53:01 -0400<br>Subject: Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness<br>From: oslist@lists.openspacetech.org<br><br>
  
    
  
  
    mmp,<br>
    <br>
    Thanks for posting this under [The Tyranny of Structurelessness.]<br>
    <br>
    How interesting that subscribers feel more comfortable contacting
    you personally by email, rather than responding here. <br>
    <br>
    Apparently you are more approachable for interactions and/or easier
    to interact with than OSLIST. I'm sure there is more than one
    specific reason "why" this might be true. <br>
    <br>
    Daniel <br>
    <br>
    <div class="ecxmoz-cite-prefix">On 10/7/15 5:16 PM, Michael M Pannwitz
      via OSList wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:56158B96.4080706@gmail.com">One of
      the structures, customs, ways of doing stuff, call it what you
      prefer  I have repeatedly noticed: A number of Members of the LIST
      I never see on the LIST send responses to stuff I put on the LIST.
      When I think  a message would be great for the whole LIST to see,
      I suggest it to the sender. Them Lurkers are definitely a "call it
      what you prefer" element of our organisation.
      <br>
      <br>
      Cheers from Berlin
      <br>
      mmp
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 07.10.2015 22:48, Michael Herman via OSList wrote:
      <br>
      <blockquote>wasn't actually intended as personal
        feedback, daniel.  was meant to be
        <br>
        a comment on the territory we all share, even when we might, any
        of us,
        <br>
        feel in the moment like an outsider, that disorientation is
        actually a
        <br>
        part of being included in the experience of open space.
        <br>
        <br>
        as for the essay, i guess i'm still a little unclear about the
        <br>
        connection.  open space doesn't strike me as any sort of
        striving for
        <br>
        structurelessness.  and i've seen both formal and informal
        structure
        <br>
        arise in open space.  harrison's term in his "millennial
        organization"
        <br>
        book and what i've seen happen is "appropriate levels of
        structure and
        <br>
        control."
        <br>
        <br>
        the oslist doesn't seem structureless, either.  there are all
        kinds of
        <br>
        limiting and supporting structures that make it possible.  and
        then
        <br>
        there are the customs we've developed, like it's common and
        desired for
        <br>
        people to reply to the whole list with answers to questions, and
        even
        <br>
        personal stories and sidebars, rather than always taking that
        stuff to
        <br>
        private emails.  much of the informal stuff was captured in
        chris
        <br>
        corrigan's oslist faq's i mentioned earlier.  and these things
        change.
        <br>
          the address changed.  the admin changed.  the archives moved
        but
        <br>
        survived, thanks to harold.  now we allow attachments.  the
        archives
        <br>
        were private and later became publicly searchable.  new people
        show up
        <br>
        all the time, and join in.  the user's non-guide (ebook)
        captured one
        <br>
        great moment in joining when julie smith showed up very new to
        all of
        <br>
        this, asked some great questions, and sparked all kinds of
        conversation
        <br>
        on many important dimensions of the practice.
        <br>
        <br>
        maybe your definition of structure will also define
        structureless.  i
        <br>
        guess i don't know what ever could be structureless, in line
        wiht chris'
        <br>
        story... except that everything's moving, it's all flow, as
        harrison
        <br>
        says.  but maybe those two stories aren't at odds, either...
        some bits
        <br>
        are just more dense or more slowly flowing than others, but it's
        all
        <br>
        flow in the end.  is flow structureless?
        <br>
        <br>
        is the tyranny of structurelessness just to say that
        everything's
        <br>
        moving, and moving on, even the parts we really like, and that
        can make
        <br>
        for some difficult experiences... that would also be nobody's
        fault, but
        <br>
        just part of the shared condition?  uncomfortable in spots, to
        be sure,
        <br>
        but nobody's and no system's "fault" or "responsibility?"
        <br>
        <br>
        as mentioned earlier, OS and the circle don't make people
        equal.  some
        <br>
        will always be better, faster, stronger, more attractive, more
        connected
        <br>
        than others.  is thta a problem to be solved?  i'm having some
        trouble
        <br>
        connecting "elites," "movement," "authorization" and some other
        terms in
        <br>
        the essay to my experience in open space and on the list.  the
        essay
        <br>
        seems to want to fix a problem, but one that's not familiar to
        me, at
        <br>
        least not as a sort of thing to be solved.
        <br>
        <br>
        why is this essay important for you?  how does it inform your
        <br>
        understanding and practice of open space?  or your participation
        on the
        <br>
        oslist?  are we a movement?  are you an elite?  is open space at
        risk of
        <br>
        being taken over?  help me make the connection(s)?
        <br>
        <br>
        i notice that you said in your first message that you find this
        <br>
        "extremely interesting" but you've yet to say why.
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        --
        <br>
        <br>
        Michael Herman
        <br>
        Michael Herman Associates
        <br>
        <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://MichaelHerman.com" target="_blank">http://MichaelHerman.com</a>
        <br>
        <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org" target="_blank">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Daniel Mezick
        <<a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dan@newtechusa.net">dan@newtechusa.net</a>
        <br>
        <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dan@newtechusa.net"><mailto:dan@newtechusa.net></a>> wrote:
        <br>
        <br>
            Yo Michael,
        <br>
        <br>
            The whole "story-context-is-missing" thing is really just a
        sidebar
        <br>
            to the important (and much wider) issues around authority.
        <br>
        <br>
            These authority-issues are raised by the subject essay, "The
        Tyranny
        <br>
            of Structurelessness." What a great essay!
        <br>
        <br>
            Story-context is a really, really important topic though,
        especially
        <br>
            if "missing-context" does have at least the potential to
        evoke
        <br>
            feelings of exclusion, in at least some members of the list.
        <br>
        <br>
            Regarding some of the things you are saying:
        <br>
        <br>
            You say, "Exclusion is the illusion. A little bit of errant
        and
        <br>
            temporary mental structure."
        <br>
        <br>
            I say, my current belief is that my feelings are not
        illusion
        <br>
            whatsoever, nor are they error. Rather they are real and
        valid,
        <br>
            human emotions. They are emotions which, when experienced
        fully, are
        <br>
            in fact an essential aspect of living well.
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
            You say, "...I notice the word tyranny again in the subject.
        Is it
        <br>
            not some kind of tyranny we all attempt over and over again
        when we
        <br>
            expect and insist that the world explain itself to/for us?"
        <br>
        <br>
            I say, my current belief is that inquiry is not simply
        important, it
        <br>
            is in fact essential. Inquiry is good.
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
            In any event, and as always, I do appreciate your feedback.
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
            I am now keen to get back to the main topic !
        <br>
        <br>
            I wonder how we might, in the here and now, go about
        defining the
        <br>
            term "structure," for purposes of further discussing issues
        raised
        <br>
            by this essay with much more clarity.
        <br>
        <br>
            That's a question I'm keen to explore with you, and the
        other
        <br>
            members of this list, inside this thread.
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
            Regards,
        <br>
            Daniel
        <br>
            <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.Prime-OS.com" target="_blank">http://www.Prime-OS.com</a>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
            On 10/6/15 11:56 AM, Michael Herman wrote:
        <br>
        <blockquote>    Yes and Daniel, there are the words
          of a story and the
          <br>
              feeling/meaning of it. I considered writing a longer
          message in
          <br>
              the telling of this story, but I wanted to transmit as
          much of the
          <br>
              spirit/experience of it as I could.
          <br>
          <br>
              Ralph didn't offer any explanation of his observation that
          <br>
              morning. He did just like I said, got up in a morning news
          circle,
          <br>
              it was an OTgathering as I noted but that doesn't matter,
          it was
          <br>
              open space and morning news. He said his piece and sat
          down. The
          <br>
              experience for me, and others I have learned only later,
          was
          <br>
              stunning and disorienting, for sure.
          <br>
          <br>
              I thought to honor and convey this experience through some
          measure
          <br>
              of similar brevity in my retelling. Maybe this is what you
          picked
          <br>
              up on. The disorienting magic of Ralph's moment.
          <br>
          <br>
              There are moments in open space of surprise and
          disconnect, maybe
          <br>
              frustration or confusion or misunderstanding or
          disorientation and
          <br>
              even disappointment that arise in open space. This we all
          know and
          <br>
              have experienced. This, to me, is not so much a thing to
          be solved
          <br>
              but the nature of the territory. It just is.
          <br>
          <br>
              Ralph never did explain his statement, as far as I know.
          He had
          <br>
              something to say and he said it. That was his only job.
          After
          <br>
              that, each of us had to figure out for ourselves what, if
          <br>
              anything, to do with his story, to decide if it was wisdom
          or
          <br>
              wisecrack. The storyteller, I think, has only the
          responsibility
          <br>
              for finding and sharing what's true for him/her.  The rest
          is up
          <br>
              to us.
          <br>
          <br>
              Maybe this points to the learning and challenge that we
          all have
          <br>
              in open space, namely learning to trust more and more that
          we
          <br>
              already are always included in a flow that is bigger and
          deeper or
          <br>
              whatever than we can see or understand or articulate
          sometimes.
          <br>
              Exclusion is the illusion. A little bit of errant and
          temporary
          <br>
              mental structure. Discomfort is not a problem (and can't
          be solved
          <br>
              by anyone!); it's a trail marker.  Which is to say about
          exclusion
          <br>
              and missing out, "welcome!"  The good news is, and the bad
          news
          <br>
              is, you're in!  And, it's all still happening Now.
          <br>
          <br>
              As I scroll up to send tha now, I notice the word tyranny
          again in
          <br>
              the subject. Is it not some kind of tyranny we all attempt
          over
          <br>
              and over again when we expect and insist that the world
          explain
          <br>
              itself to/for us?  Is this not something of our central
          challenge,
          <br>
              something all of us work with?  The edge of open space is
          an end
          <br>
              of comfortable, conventional understanding?  Or something?
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
              On Tuesday, October 6, 2015, Daniel Mezick via OSList
          <br>
             
<<a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org"><mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org></a><a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>
              <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org"><mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org></a>> wrote:
          <br>
          <br>
                  Hi Harrison,
          <br>
          <br>
                  Thanks for the tips on how to search OSLIST and
          Google, etc. I
          <br>
                  did do those things actually. However, that's a bit of
          an
          <br>
                  effort, especially searching the OSLIST archives. I
          guess I
          <br>
                  could eventually pick up OSLIST culture that way,
          little by
          <br>
                  little. I suppose an earnest person with loads of time
          could
          <br>
                  sift through OSLIST archives to figure this culture
          out. The
          <br>
                  hard way.
          <br>
          <br>
                  However, like the SPIRIT book teaches, there is
          nothing like a
          <br>
                  good story to convey culture. The kind of story with a
          <br>
                  beginning, a middle and an end.
          <br>
          <br>
                  I notice that, when you are the one referring to a
          certain
          <br>
                  OS-mythos story, you usually tend to include the short
          list of
          <br>
                  pertinent details, the essential details that provide
          the
          <br>
                  essential context, so the reader can follow along, and
          engage.
          <br>
          <br>
                  And I'm always grateful for that, as it helps me to
          follow
          <br>
                  along, and get what you are referring to, and more
          fully
          <br>
                  understand the story, and feel oddly included in the
          story.
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
                  Earlier, I express how not having the context tends to
          (for
          <br>
                  me) arouse feelings of: exclusion, cluelessness, and a
          general
          <br>
                  lack of membership in whatever
          "historic-OS-mythos-episode" is
          <br>
                  being referred to. Sort of an "out group" feeling. You
          know?
          <br>
                  Sometimes, I wonder what the poster might be thinking
          by
          <br>
                  posting random fragments of a "you had to be there"
          kind of
          <br>
                  story. Other times, I wonder if other readers are also
          feeling
          <br>
                  these feelings. Or if it is "just me."
          <br>
          <br>
                  And so: I am very grateful for your stories, in part
          because
          <br>
                  you include the pertinent details, and in so doing,
          make me
          <br>
                  (for one) feel included.
          <br>
          <br>
                  So thanks for including the context in your stories.
          It makes
          <br>
                  them fun, and easy to follow. OSLIST culture certainly
          has
          <br>
                  it's quirks, and for me, your stories make this
          culture easier
          <br>
                  to figure out, and navigate, and enjoy.
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
                  Getting back to the Tyranny of Structurelessness:
          <br>
          <br>
                  Do you think these 3 assertions by the author are
          actually
          <br>
                  true? Do these ideas have legs?
          <br>
          <br>
                    * /This hegemony can be so easily established
          because the
          <br>
                      idea of "structurelessness" does not prevent the
          formation
          <br>
                      of informal structures, only formal ones./
          <br>
                    * /For everyone to have the opportunity to be
          involved in a
          <br>
                      given group and to participate in its activities,
          the
          <br>
                      structure must be explicit, not implicit. /
          <br>
                    * /It is this informal structure, particularly in
          <br>
                      Unstructured groups, which forms the basis for
          elites./
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
                  Daniel
          <br>
          <br>
                  On 10/6/15 10:04 AM, Harrison Owen wrote:
          <br>
          <blockquote>
            <br>
                    Dan, Google can often help.
            <br>
                   
<a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman" target="_blank"><https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman></a><a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman</a><br>
            <br>
            <br>
                    ho
            <br>
            <br>
                    *From:*OSList
            [<a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org">mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>]
            <br>
                    *On Behalf Of *Daniel Mezick via OSList
            <br>
                    *Sent:* Monday, October 05, 2015 4:51 PM
            <br>
                    *To:* Harrison Owen; World wide Open Space
            Technology email list
            <br>
                    *Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of
            Structurelessness
            <br>
            <br>
                    Howdy Harrison,
            <br>
            <br>
                    Thanks for describing the context of the Ralph
            Copleman
            <br>
                    story- I'm very thankful for that info.
            <br>
            <br>
                    I notice that, lots of times here, there are
            references made
            <br>
                    to notable OST episodes, and situations from times
            past...
            <br>
            <br>
                    ...the "OST-mythos" as it were.
            <br>
            <br>
                    These mythical stories often have me wondering what
            I missed,
            <br>
                    and what I might now be missing. (Being clueless as
            I am.)
            <br>
            <br>
                    I'm sure these story-fragment postings are not
            posted with
            <br>
                    intent to exclude anyone, or to be discourteous, or
            unkind.
            <br>
                    More like: some good old basic camaraderie is taking
            place
            <br>
                    between some old friends.
            <br>
            <br>
                    Still: Do these "inside-story-fragments" on OSLIST
            tend to
            <br>
                    evoke feelings of exclusion in readers who were
            /not/ there
            <br>
                    at the time?
            <br>
            <br>
                    Not sure.
            <br>
            <br>
                    <CONFESSION>
            <br>
            <br>
                    As for me, personally, I sometimes find myself
            experiencing
            <br>
                    curiously odd feelings of exclusion, when a
            told-fragment of
            <br>
                    an old OST-mythos story lacks explicit context. So I
            can
            <br>
                    follow the story, you know? The terms "outsider" or
            <br>
                    "clueless" or  "not in the story" describe these
            feelings
            <br>
                    fairly well. "Not invited?"
            <br>
            <br>
                    I sometimes wonder if some of the hundreds of
            /other/ members
            <br>
                    of OSLIST ever feel this way...or if it is "just
            me."
            <br>
            <br>
                    </CONFESSION>
            <br>
            <br>
                    Daniel
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
                    On 10/4/15 2:59 PM, Harrison Owen via OSList wrote:
            <br>
            <br>
                        â€œEverythingis moving.†  .... Michael -- I
            remember
            <br>
                        that moment verywell. And Dan, I’m not sure
            the
            <br>
                        context, etc, would helpvery much. But just for
            the
            <br>
                        record the odd phrase popped out at one of the
            <br>
                        International Symposia on Organization
            Transformation
            <br>
                        which happened to be taking place at a small
            college
            <br>
                        south of Seattle. I have no idea why Ralph said
            what he
            <br>
                        did, and I’m not sure Ralph did either. But
            then againa
            <br>
                        lot of marvelous stuff seems to burst out with
            no obvious
            <br>
                        logic train. Indeed it may be that the lack of
            logic
            <br>
                        train enables the thought?
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        Whatever the genesis, the phrase wandered about
            my head
            <br>
                        for some time, quite unattached, and it also
            happened
            <br>
                        that I was working my way slowly through one of
            the
            <br>
                        masterpieces of 20^th century western philosophy
            when a
            <br>
                        fuzzy connection began to form. The work was
            that of
            <br>
                        Alfred North Whitehead, and the title:
            â€œProcess and
            <br>
                        Reality.†I’ve been through thebook probably
            4-5
            <br>
                        times, and I am frank to confess that I don’t
            think I
            <br>
                        really understandit. But then again
            I’veheard  a
            <br>
                        number of people with much greater credentials,
            tenure,
            <br>
                        etc â€“ say the same thing. But I did get that
            ithad
            <br>
                        something to do with, â€œEverything is moving.â€
            Andthe
            <br>
                        more I thought and read, the more I felt that
            the good
            <br>
                        philosopher had made a small mistake on his
            title. It
            <br>
                        shouldn’t be â€œProcess/and/ Reality,†but
            <br>
                        rather“Process*is* Reality.â€
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        Now, Anna Caroline we come to â€œstructure,†or
            perhaps
            <br>
                        Ishould say the fallacy of Structure? Yes I know
            â€“
            <br>
                        we’ve all been taught that structure is the
            precursor,
            <br>
                        the â€œdeterminator†of everything. My face
            looks as it
            <br>
                        doesbecause of my bone structure. My life
            proceeds the
            <br>
                        way it does because of my social structure. My
            business
            <br>
                        works as it does because of the organizational
            structure.
            <br>
                        And of course, meetings happen the way they do
            because of
            <br>
                        meeting structure, which apparently is the prime
            domain
            <br>
                        of â€œfacilitators.†And even if we hadn’t
            <br>
                        been“taught†all this, the primacy of
            structure would
            <br>
                        appearto be blatantly obvious â€“ as plain as
            the nose on
            <br>
                        yourface.
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        Unfortunately, it does seem to turn out that
            sometimes
            <br>
                        the blatantly obvious is not necessarily so. For
            example
            <br>
                        just looking at things it is pretty clear that
            the world
            <br>
                        is flat, or at the least bumpy flat. And any
            fool can see
            <br>
                        that we are the center of it all â€“ Sun, moon,
            and stars
            <br>
                        whiz around us. But when we think about it, as
            we have
            <br>
                        been doing for the last 500-600 years, the
            obvious
            <br>
                        isn’t so obvious.
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        It is reasonable to ask what would start to make
            us think
            <br>
                        differently â€“ to the point that we begin to
            question
            <br>
                        theobvious, and even come to see things in a
            different
            <br>
                        way? Taking a leap, I will suggest that it all
            begins
            <br>
                        with the perception of anomaly. Things just
            don’t make
            <br>
                        sense. Our eyes tell us one thing... but???? And
            then we
            <br>
                        start making up stories to explain the
            apparently
            <br>
                        unexplainable. We imagine different ways of
            looking at
            <br>
                        things so that the nonsensical makes sense. Some
            of those
            <br>
                        stories get pretty strange, but if they actually
            work â€“
            <br>
                        that is to say, helpus to see in new and useful
            ways â€“
            <br>
                        that’s great!
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        There is, of course, a proper term for the
            activity I
            <br>
                        have been describing. It is called Theory
            Building. And
            <br>
                        for whatever it is worth, â€œtheory†comes from
            the
            <br>
                        Greek â€œ/theoreinâ//€ /– to see. In a word,
            theories
            <br>
                        are ways of looking atthings â€“ likely stories
            you might
            <br>
                        say.
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        Now, at long last (too long?) we come to the odd
            story I
            <br>
                        was starting to tell, to the effect that
            Structure is
            <br>
                        only a figment of our imagination, a flash frame
            of a
            <br>
                        moment gone by. Interesting, and helpful under
            some
            <br>
                        circumstances... but always partial and in a
            sense
            <br>
                        illusory. What’s“really†happening is all
            flow.
            <br>
                        Everything is moving â€“That’s Ralph’s
            story, and I
            <br>
                        guess it is mine too.
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        So how did I get to such a weird condition? It
            was all
            <br>
                        about anomaly â€“ more particularly, the anomaly
            of Open
            <br>
                        Space.Everything that I had ever learned told me
            that it
            <br>
                        could not work. Unfortunately it did (work) â€“
            and not
            <br>
                        just once, butevery time, hundreds of thousands
            of times.
            <br>
                        Something was definitely weird. It seemed to me
            that I
            <br>
                        had to re-consider all those things I thought I
            had
            <br>
                        learned, beginning with the basics... such
            things as
            <br>
                        Structure.
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        Common sense would say that Open Space works
            because we
            <br>
                        somehow created a structure that enabled it to
            work.
            <br>
                        That’s theway things get done, or so I had
            been taught.
            <br>
                        But that’snot the way things happened in Open
            Space.
            <br>
                        Structure emerged along the way and only
            momentarily.
            <br>
                        Worse yet it (structure) seemed to have little
            to do with
            <br>
                        the obvious power, connections, creativity....
            all of
            <br>
                        which created structures, and passed them by.
            And
            <br>
                        actually it always seemed to me that the
            â€œstructuresâ€
            <br>
                        I â€œsaw†existed only because Iwanted to see
            them â€“
            <br>
                        or perhaps that I â€œshould†seethem. But they
            were only
            <br>
                        momentary wisps, figments â€“ neverto be
            mistaken for
            <br>
                        what was really going on. Or so I’vebeen
            thinking.
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        Harrison
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        *From:*OSList
            <br>
                        [<a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org">mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>]
            *On
            <br>
                        Behalf Of *Michael Herman via OSList
            <br>
                        *Sent:* Saturday, October 03, 2015 6:31 PM
            <br>
                        *To:* JL Walker; World wide Open Space
            Technology email list
            <br>
                        *Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of
            Structurelessness
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        you remind me, harrison, of one morning news
            session
            <br>
                        years ago, somewhere, probably OT... where ralph
            copleman
            <br>
                        walked to the center of the circle and
            announced, all
            <br>
                        serious and mischievous at the same time, "it's
            all
            <br>
                        moving!" Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        then put the stick down and went back to his
            seat.Â
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
                        --
            <br>
            <br>
                        Michael Herman
            <br>
                        Michael Herman Associates
            <br>
                        <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://MichaelHerman.com" target="_blank">http://MichaelHerman.com</a>
            <br>
                        <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org" target="_blank">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a>
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 1:47 PM, JL Walker via
            OSList
            <br>
                        <<a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a>
            <br>
                       
            <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org"><mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org></a>> wrote:
            <br>
            <br>
                        I was thinking that maybe the antidote to the
            eventual
            <br>
                        tyranny of structurelessness is to open space,
            again and
            <br>
                        again, until true democracy can emerge.
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        Juan Luis
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        *De:*OSList
            <br>
                        [<a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org">mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>
            <br>
                       
            <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org"><mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org></a>] *En
            <br>
                        nombre de *Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList
            <br>
                        *Enviado el:* sábado, 03 de octubre de 2015
            12:19
            <br>
                        *Para:* Daniel Mezick; World wide Open Space
            Technology
            <br>
                        email list
            <br>
                        *Asunto:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of
            Structurelessness
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        Hi Daniel,
            <br>
            <br>
                        Yes, this is a key piece... I see it as very
            similar in
            <br>
                        some ways to what Ken Wilber wrote later,
            <br>
            <br>
                        about the "shadow side of the green meme". (Each
            meme has
            <br>
                        its own shadow, as well as its own gift...)
            <br>
            <br>
                        So, I love "green". I love circles, I love
            non-hierarchy,
            <br>
                        etc.
            <br>
                        And, part of the "shadow side of the green meme"
            is how
            <br>
                        ideologically anti-structure it can become...
            <br>
            <br>
                        to the point where some people may not even
            agree that
            <br>
                        OST does, in fact, offer a very simple and
            effective
            <br>
                        structure.
            <br>
            <br>
                        By way contrast, think of a situation where
            group of
            <br>
                        people (who don't know about OST, and/or, who
            are having
            <br>
                        a power struggle around "which process to use",
            <br>
                        and/or.... ) might easily spending a whole
            weekend
            <br>
                        arguing /about /"how to self-organize
            ourselves"... with
            <br>
                        a great deal more pain and frustration and a
            great deal
            <br>
                        less value.
            <br>
            <br>
                        whereas, instead, IF someone knows about OST,
            and, a
            <br>
                        clear invitation has been extended, and, there
            is enough
            <br>
                        trust/suspension of disbelief so that
            participants are
            <br>
                        willing to enter into that format,
            <br>
            <br>
                        then, we end up with a very simple and elegant
            structure
            <br>
                        that allows people to self-organize
            beautifully....
            <br>
            <br>
                        at least that's how i see it! :-)
            <br>
            <br>
                        with all best wishes,
            <br>
            <br>
                        Rosa
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
                        */Rosa Zubizarreta/*
            <br>
            <br>
                        /Developing Participatory and Co-intelligent
            Leadership
            <br>
                        Author of *From Conflict to Creative
            Collaboration*
            <br>
                        <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.conflict2creativity.com" target="_blank"><http://www.conflict2creativity.com></a>/
            <br>
            <br>
                        /For more resources and learning opportunities,
            visit
            <br>
                       
            *<a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.DiaPraxis.com" target="_blank"><http://www.DiaPraxis.com></a><a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.DiaPraxis.com" target="_blank">www.DiaPraxis.com</a>
            <br>
                        <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.DiaPraxis.com" target="_blank"><http://www.DiaPraxis.com></a>*/
            <br>
            <br>
                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
                        On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Daniel Mezick
            via OSList
            <br>
                        <<a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a>
            <br>
                       
            <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org"><mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org></a>> wrote:
            <br>
            <br>
                        THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS
            <br>
                        by Jo Freeman aka Joreen
            <br>
            <br>
                        I find this essay extremely interesting. I hope
            you do, too.
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
                        Here is a pertinent quote, from the essay:
            <br>
                        ".../the idea of "structurelessness" does not
            prevent the
            <br>
                        formation of informal structures, only formal
            ones."
            <br>
            <br>
                        /
            <br>
                        Circa 1970. Context: the women's movement. Quick
            summary
            <br>
                        of the main points: from the essay...
            <br>
            <br>
                        ï‚·/During the years in which the women's
            liberation
            <br>
                        movement has been taking shape, a great emphasis
            has been
            <br>
                        placed on what are called leaderless,
            structureless
            <br>
                        groups as the main -- if not sole --
            organizational form
            <br>
                        of the movement. /
            <br>
            <br>
                        ï‚·/The idea of "structurelessness," however,
            has moved
            <br>
                        from a healthy counter to those tendencies, to
            becoming a
            <br>
                        goddess in its own right./
            <br>
            <br>
                        ï‚·/Contrary to what we would like to believe,
            there is
            <br>
                        no such thing as a structureless group. /
            <br>
            <br>
                        ï‚·/This means that to strive for a
            structureless group
            <br>
                        is as useful, and as deceptive, as to aim at an
            <br>
                        "objective" news story, "value-free" social
            science, or a
            <br>
                        "free" economy. A "laissez faire" group is about
            as
            <br>
                        realistic as a "laissez faire" society; the idea
            becomes
            <br>
                        a smokescreen for the strong or the lucky to
            establish
            <br>
                        unquestioned hegemony over others. /
            <br>
            <br>
                        ï‚·/This hegemony can be so easily established
            because
            <br>
                        the idea of "structurelessness" does not prevent
            the
            <br>
                        formation of informal structures, only formal
            ones. /
            <br>
            <br>
                        ï‚·/For everyone to have the opportunity to be
            involved
            <br>
                        in a given group and to participate in its
            activities,
            <br>
                        the structure must be explicit, not implicit. /
            <br>
            <br>
                        ï‚·/It is this informal structure, particularly
            in
            <br>
                        Unstructured groups, which forms the basis for
            elites./
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
                        Just in case you have not yet encountered the
            full text
            <br>
                        of this essay, here it is:
            <br>
            <br>
                        THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS
            <br>
                        by Jo Freeman aka Joreen
            <br>
                        <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm" target="_blank">http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm</a>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
                        Regards,
            <br>
                        Daniel
            <br>
                        <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.OpenSpaceAgility.com/about" target="_blank">http://www.OpenSpaceAgility.com/about</a>
            <br>
                        <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.DanielMezick.com" target="_blank">http://www.DanielMezick.com</a>
            <br>
                        203 915 7248 <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" target="_blank"><tel:203%20915%207248></a>
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                        Â
            <br>
            <br>
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            <br>
                        _______________________________________________
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            <br>
            <br>
                    --
            <br>
            <br>
                    Daniel Mezick, President
            <br>
            <br>
                    New Technology Solutions Inc.
            <br>
            <br>
                    (203) 915 7248 <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" target="_blank"><tel:%28203%29%20915%207248></a>
            (cell)
            <br>
            <br>
                    Bio <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/></a>. Blog
            <br>
                    <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/blog/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/blog/></a>. Twitter
            <br>
                    <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/" target="_blank"><http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/></a>.Â
            <br>
            <br>
                    Examine my new book: The Culture Game
            <br>
                   
            <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/></a>:
            Tools
            <br>
                    for the Agile Manager.
            <br>
            <br>
                    Explore Agile Team Training
            <br>
                   
            <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/></a>
            and
            <br>
                    Coaching.
            <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/></a>
            <br>
            <br>
                    Explore the Agile Boston
            <br>
                   
            <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/user-groups/ma/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/user-groups/ma/></a>Community.Â
            <br>
            <br>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
                  --
          <br>
          <br>
                  Daniel Mezick, President
          <br>
          <br>
                  New Technology Solutions Inc.
          <br>
          <br>
                  (203) 915 7248 <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" target="_blank"><tel:%28203%29%20915%207248></a>
          (cell)
          <br>
          <br>
                  Bio <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/></a>. Blog
          <br>
                  <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/blog/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/blog/></a>. Twitter
          <br>
                  <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/" target="_blank"><http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/></a>.
          <br>
          <br>
                  Examine my new book:The Culture Game
          <br>
                 
          <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/></a>:
          Tools
          <br>
                  for the Agile Manager.
          <br>
          <br>
                  Explore Agile Team Training
          <br>
                 
          <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/></a>
          and
          <br>
                  Coaching.
          <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/></a>
          <br>
          <br>
                  Explore the Agile Boston
          <br>
                 
          <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/></a>Community.
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
              --
          <br>
          <br>
              --
          <br>
          <br>
              Michael Herman
          <br>
              Michael Herman Associates
          <br>
              <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://MichaelHerman.com" target="_blank">http://MichaelHerman.com</a>
          <br>
              <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org" target="_blank">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
            --
        <br>
        <br>
            Daniel Mezick, President
        <br>
        <br>
            New Technology Solutions Inc.
        <br>
        <br>
            (203) 915 7248 <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" target="_blank"><tel:%28203%29%20915%207248></a> (cell)
        <br>
        <br>
            Bio <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/></a>. Blog
        <br>
            <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/blog/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/blog/></a>. Twitter
        <br>
            <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/" target="_blank"><http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/></a>.
        <br>
        <br>
            Examine my new book:The Culture Game
        <br>
            <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/></a>:
        Tools for the
        <br>
            Agile Manager.
        <br>
        <br>
            Explore Agile Team Training
        <br>
            <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/></a>
        and Coaching.
        <br>
            <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/></a>
        <br>
        <br>
            Explore the Agile Boston
        <br>
            <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/" target="_blank"><http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/></a>Community.
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
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      <p class="ecxp1">Daniel Mezick, President</p>
      <p class="ecxp1">New Technology Solutions Inc.</p>
      <p class="ecxp1">(203) 915 7248 (cell)</p>
      <p class="ecxp2"><span class="ecxs1"><a href="http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/" target="_blank">Bio</a></span><span class="ecxs2">. <a href="http://newtechusa.net/blog/" target="_blank"><span class="ecxs1">Blog</span></a>. <a href="http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/" target="_blank"><span class="ecxs1">Twitter</span></a>.<span class="ecxApple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
      <p class="ecxp3"><span class="ecxs2">Examine my new book:<span class="ecxApple-converted-space">  </span><a href="http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/" target="_blank"><span class="ecxs1">The Culture Game </span></a></span><span class="ecxs1">: Tools for the Agile Manager</span><span class="ecxs2">.</span></p>
      <p class="ecxp1">Explore Agile Team <a href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/" target="_blank"><span class="ecxs3">Training</span></a> and <a href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/" target="_blank"><span class="ecxs3">Coaching.</span></a></p>
      <p class="ecxp1">Explore the <a href="http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/" target="_blank"><span class="ecxs3">Agile
            Boston </span></a>Community.<span class="ecxApple-converted-space"> </span></p>
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