<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444">Sure thing Harold</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444">Yes groups have an emergent wholeness, but that does not mean that they take on characteristics we understand in individuals. We should be careful not to anthropomorphise (?) them.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444">Groups definitely have aliveness, needs, strengths, weakenesses, robustness, identity... lots of things. I can understand what these characteristics mean for a collective, as a system, and a collection of individuals. To me they all make sense.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444">I can't understand what "will" means for a group. Nor do I see will in action. Some similar things I do see... e.g. the individuals in a group give consent for a collective decision... but this isn't the same thing as will. This is group behaviour emerging out of a collective of individuals, with individual wills, consenting to be identified with a certain position by virtue of membership (some more loosely bound than others, and all with their own interpretation of the contract).</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444">This is <i>not</i> will, it is characteristically different.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444">I am guilty myself of shorthanding, using individual psychological terms to describe group behaviour. Sometimes it is pragmatic, but we shouldn't hold on too tight.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444">Cheers</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><br><div><div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><font color="#663300" face="'trebuchet ms', sans-serif"><b><i>John Baxter</i></b></font></div><div style="text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small;font-family:'trebuchet ms',sans-serif;color:rgb(68,68,68)"><i>CoCreate Adelaide Facilitator, Director of Realise consultancy</i></div><div style="text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small;font-family:'trebuchet ms',sans-serif;color:rgb(68,68,68)"><a href="http://cocreateadl.com/localgov%E2%80%8B" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">CoCreateADL.com</a> | <a href="http://www.jsbaxter.com.au/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">jsbaxter.com.au</a></div><div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><font color="#444444" face="'trebuchet ms', sans-serif">0405 447 829</font><div style="font-family:'trebuchet ms',sans-serif;color:rgb(68,68,68);display:inline"><font color="#444444" face="'trebuchet ms', sans-serif"> | </font></div><span style="color:rgb(68,68,68);font-family:'trebuchet ms',sans-serif">@</span><a href="http://twitter.com/jsbaxter_" style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:'trebuchet ms',sans-serif" target="_blank">jsbaxter_</a></div><div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><i><b><a href="http://citygrill.eventbrite.com.au" target="_blank">City Grill— An Election Forum More Magnificent Than Any Ever Seen</a>!</b>, Saturday 18 October 2014<br>Connect with your candidates, get your voice heard by joining with others in your community, and Influence the future of the city</i></div></div><div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><i><br></i></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 2:04 AM, Harold Shinsato via OSList <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Hi John,<br>
<br>
Thank you for your engagement on the OSList - I'm greatly enjoying
what you are helping us look at.<br>
<br>
When you spoke about "nothing mystical about" the will of the group,
and in fact, that groups don't have a "will" - this goes explicitly
against the core thinking I've experienced from several different
traditions in looking at the group in the light of systems thinking.
To take one tradition, here's a quote from what many call the
"coaching bible", "Co-active Coaching: New Skills for Coaching
People Toward Success":<br>
<br>
"A team, an organization, even a partnership or intimate
relationship exists as a living system, not simply a collection of
individual parts. A human system can be thought of as a group of
interdependent members with a common focus. The behavior of the
system emerges out of the interaction of its players and is greater
than the sum of its parts. The system itself is alive, has needs,
strengths, weaknesses, values. It can be robust or fragile. In
organization and relationship systems coaching, we refer to the
system as the 'third entity'."<br>
<br>
In this light, would you say more about your thinking that groups
don't have will?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Harold<span class=""><br>
<br>
<div>On 10/16/14 12:28 AM, John Baxter
wrote:<br>
</div>
</span><blockquote type="cite"><span class="">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default">Interesting questions
Harold.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">My first thought regards
"will" - there's nothing mystical about it. Groups don't have
will, individuals have will... groups just exhibit collective
behaviour when these wills are aligned... though I guess it
takes much more than that!</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">I think the magic (if not
mysticism) of self organisation is that people can and do get
together and do things themselves, regardless of formal
authority from a boss or a group. All they need is to get
adequate resources working towards an intent, with access to
the right levers (including time, passion, social capital...;
money is often down the list of importance).</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">The Formal Organisation
assumes that this doesn't happen, but we all know that it
does. Harrison gives good examples.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">One or two or three people
with aligned will might be enough for "where there is a will
there is a way". Or in the case of the Pirate Party of Sweden
(I just posted here about Swarmwise), the required "will" was
225,000 votes... and of course the thousands of activists who
needed to campaign in order to catalyse that will.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
</div>
</span><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div><span class="">
<div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><font color="#663300" face="'trebuchet ms', sans-serif"><b><i>John
Baxter</i></b></font></div>
<div><i>CoCreate
Adelaide Facilitator, Director of Realise consultancy</i></div>
<div><a href="http://cocreateadl.com/localgov%E2%80%8B" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">CoCreateADL.com
</a> | <a href="http://www.jsbaxter.com.au/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">jsbaxter.com.au</a></div>
</span><div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><font color="#444444" face="'trebuchet ms', sans-serif">0405
447 829</font>
<div><font color="#444444" face="'trebuchet ms', sans-serif">
| </font></div>
<span>@</span><a href="http://twitter.com/jsbaxter_" target="_blank">jsbaxter_</a></div>
<div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><br>
</div><span class="">
<div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><i><b><a href="http://citygrill.eventbrite.com.au" target="_blank">City Grill— An Election Forum More
Magnificent Than Any Ever Seen</a>!</b>, Saturday
18 October 2014<br>
Connect with your candidates, get your voice heard by
joining with others in your community, and Influence
the future of the city</i></div>
</span></div>
<div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><i><br>
</i></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Harold
Shinsato via OSList <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Harrison,<br>
<br>
A deep bow of gratitude for your thoughts around the
patronizing quality of "empowerment" as well as the rich
questions raised in your response to Daniel.<br>
<br>
Thank you for this quote "...if we understand OST simply
to be an invitation to maximize the ongoing process of
Self Organization - the basics are already in place and
fully operational..."<br>
<br>
You say *the basics* are already in place. That seems to
imply that using OST (for now at least) is helping us get
beyond the basics. Is there anything else that helps us
get beyond the basics for Self Organizing?<br>
<br>
Also, to your statement "When there's a will
(desire/care), there's almost inevitably a way." Whose
will? Is it the "will" of the Group/Organization as a
whole?<br>
<br>
So despite the duly authorized say so of the Boss/Sponsor
(or lack thereof), if the "will" of the Group is to do
something, it will find a way. Could we better consider
"Sponsor" support as the "will" of the Group? And if the
will of the Group is at odds with the Boss's will, how do
we tell when it'll be ok/safe/legal to run OST despite the
Boss "just saying no"?<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
Harold
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 10/15/14 10:47 AM, Harrison Owen via OSList
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Dan
– Your Sponsor Properties are intriguing. My
first-take response would be, Sure. All are
useful. And the same could be said for having
any party. After all, who would want to go to
a party when there is nowhere to go, nothing
to consume (resources), and the party itself
is contrary to all regulations? End of report.
Full stop!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">But
is it? If so a whole mess of teenagers,
Gen-X’s, what have you, would be very
surprised. My experience aligns with theirs.
When there’s a will (desire/care), there’s
almost inevitably a way. Somehow the space
clears, the consumables manifest, and who
cares about the regulations. A fellow parent
once said in jest that the fastest way to
insure a massive neighborhood teen blowout was
1) Restrict all likely participants to their
bedrooms. 2) Remove any and all possible
“consumables,” and 3) Issue a proclamation
that the Party Can’t Happen. That’s not a joke
son. But of course such behavior could never
happen in a well managed, bureaucratic
organization. Right?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Maybe.
But my organizational experience suggests a
rather different conclusion. I spent some 10
years in the (US) Federal Health Care
establishment, mostly the NIH (National
Institutes of Health), which most folks at the
time (1970-1980) would describe as hugely
bureaucratic and generally well managed. I
can’t give you a totally accurate account, but
I venture to guess that something like 50% of
all the “program initiatives” I was involved
with occurred without “official” sponsorship,
with little to no resources, and no time or
space allocated going in. In one situation
where we were working to spell out something
called “Competence Based Re-licensure” for
physicians – which was about as popular as a
skunk at a garden party – we worked together
for better than a year, involved a broad base
of experts (including the past Director of
NIH), and produced a product which is still
having influence today. At the conclusion of
our efforts, the Director of NIH came to me
and asked what the budget had been. My
response: “I don’t know sir. We never found
one.”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Doubtless
that is just the aberrant behavior of HH Owen.
But if so, that marvelous creative source of
innovation, The Skunk Works, could never have
happened. I think Tom Peters named the
critter, but anybody involved with the
creation of new products and who honestly
describes how they happened, will recognize
the beast. The poster child, of course is the
“Post-it” from 3M. If you listen to the voice
of 3M today, you might think that the new
product arose from a careful plan, richly
resourced, and fully blessed by the corporate
powers that be. Nothing could be further from
the truth. Post-its was actually the product
of a small motley crew, with virtually no
resources, except those they could “borrow,”
often operating in secret to avoid corporate
censure. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">But
what does all this have to do with Open Space?
Nothing, I guess. And everything, I do
believe. Obviously Open Space as a formal
entity (sit in circle...) had nothing to do
with any of the above. It didn’t exist. On the
other hand if we understand OST simply to be
an intentional invitation to maximize the
ongoing process of Self Organization – the
basics are already in place and fully
operational, as has been the case for 13.7
billion years. I have found it very worthwhile
to consider the operation of naturally
occurring “Open Space” as a guide to our own
efforts with OST. And there is a lot to
consider, but in the area of “sponsorship” it
would seem that what Dan has suggested may
well be true, but is by no means the whole
story. In a word, there is a lot more than
meets the eye. I think.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Harrison</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
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Address</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Websites</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="http://%20www.openspaceworld.com" target="_blank"> www.openspaceworld.com</a></span></p>
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<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
OSList [<a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Daniel Mezick via
OSList<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 15, 2014
8:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [OSList] Authority
Distribution in Open Space</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi
Harrison,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your rich reply and explanation of
the role of [empowerment].<br>
<br>
Question: <br>
<br>
Is is true that if we have the 5 preconditions
as you describe, do we still need the following
to have an effective OST event?<br>
<br>
(Note I am assuming a private (not a
public-conference-type OST event...)<br>
<br>
Sponsor Properties:<br>
<br>
1. A Sponsor who has permission from the org,
to allocate some of the org's scarce capital, to
pay for the event expenses;<br>
<br>
2. A Sponsor who has permission from the org,
to invite people to spend a day if they so
choose, by accepting the invite;<br>
<br>
3. A Sponsor who has permission from the org,
and is <i>willing</i> and able to "keep it
open", with all the issues "on the table" with
no issues "off limits" as described on page 20
of the GUIDE;<br>
<br>
4. A Sponsor who has permission from the org,
and is <i>willing</i> to: <br>
<br>
a) Represent to the people that the
Sponsor's plan is to immediately act the (as yet
unknown) Proceedings and (drum roll here...)<br>
b) ...actually follow through and act on
the issues that appear in the Proceedings,
immediately following the event.<br>
<br>
<br>
If the Sponsor is missing even one of these
properties, is it advised to proceed at all?<br>
<br>
Daniel</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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</blockquote>
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<br><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
</font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
</font></span></blockquote><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<br>
<div>-- <br>
Harold Shinsato<br>
<a href="mailto:harold@shinsato.com" target="_blank">harold@shinsato.com</a><br>
<a href="http://shinsato.com" target="_blank">http://shinsato.com</a><br>
twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/hajush" target="_blank">@hajush</a></div>
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