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   Christine,
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    Your comments about self-organization always being present ....yet open space creating the conditions of high performance brought up some anologies for me.  Static energy is energy that is stuck.....when electricity goes through a burner in a stove it meets resistance and creates heat....and when energy flows it creates and does lots of amazng things....... Self-orgnization to me is kind of similar. Yes it is always present and the human tendency toward control (as well as others) inhibits the energy of self-organization from flowing freely. Open space creates the conditions that let the energy of self-organization to flow freely resulting in high performance.
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    I hope the analogy is helpful.
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    David
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    On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 3:47 PM, christine koehler 
    <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:chris.alice.koehler@gmail.com" target="_blank">chris.alice.koehler@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:
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      Harrison, 
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       Maybe I am beginning to get it. Maybe not. 
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       You say self-organization is already there, no matter what we do or dont do. ok. 
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       Maybe the question is not about self-organisation but about high performance : Hsieh, Gore, Semler's visions only say something about how they see high performance flow from/in/thru the system. Might be an attempt to control it,  by naming it Holacracy, or even self organization ? However, from what they say, their way of controling it might end up with higher levels of performance than "command and control"systems. Using Open Space creates conditions for high performance. But then, should we just stop doing deciding and trying things because no matter what we do the system will self-organize ?
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       Are we "working too hard" when we try to work differently ?Do you believe that Zappos would have end up anyway with same performance withoug the hard work of implementing Holacracy ? Anyway, we will never know...
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       My feeling is also that people tend to prefer when they understand how things work (otherwise they get anxious), and in this regard self-organization may make things  uneasy. Who can tell how it works ? If you take decision making for instance, and if I take Wosonos as an example, sometimes the decision making process for the location on the next one is so obvious to everybody who go through it that everything seems easy and clear. But sometimes , and for reasons that are quite unclear to me, it seems that the some people are not happy and the decision maling process is questioned. Of course this is true with any decision making process, maybe it's just that some processes are easier to describe. Our brain needs to be able to simplify complex processes in order to be comfortable with it. 
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       Right now I am experiencing something interesting : for a management seminar, a few groups emerged from what I could call a very simplistic "law of 2 feet" decision making process. ie  there was offered opportunity for 5 groups to emerge, and so it went. (why 5 ? well, that was completely arbitrary. probably because timing was short and that there were only very short time to get feedbacks fro the groupn as feedback was required) .  After the seminar where people are asked to work further on those topics. Management decided not to let leaders of those groups use the law of 2 feets but members could. (I agree this is a strange rule). What is happening is that they are questioning the decision making process : how do we know those topics are the most important ones ? is this group the best to work on such particular topic ? How can I feel legitimate in being the leader of this group as it is not my dayjob ? etc.. Would you say that they are working too hard ? That the system will take care of itself and anyway self-organize, no matter what we do  ?
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       Christine 
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       On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 11:27 PM, Harrison Owen 
       <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:hhowen@verizon.net" target="_blank">hhowen@verizon.net</a>></span> wrote:
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Christine ... &#x201c;I find very interesting this tension between personal vision (think about Gore for instance or Semler and Semco) and self-organization. looks very complex and human to me ;)<u></u><u></u></span></p> 
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">but still wondering how self-organization fits within this kind of frame.&#x201d; <u></u><u></u></span></p> 
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It is really easy. Self Organization is already there, but the poor folks at Zappo think they did it! Surprise &#x2013; what they really did was complicate something that could have happened very easily by itself. Ah! But we humans have to feel we are in control. Even when we say we aren&#x2019;t and don&#x2019;t care to be. The Trojan Horse rides again. Zappo&#x2019;d as it were.<u></u><u></u></span></p> 
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">ho<u></u><u></u></span></p> 
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           <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Harrison Owen<u></u><u></u></span></p>
           <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">7808 River Falls Dr.<u></u><u></u></span></p> 
           <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Potomac, MD 20854<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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           <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)<u></u><u></u></span></p> 
           <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Camden, Maine 04843<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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           <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Phone <a href="tel:301-365-2093" value="+13013652093" target="_blank">301-365-2093</a><u></u><u></u></span></p> 
           <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">(summer)  <a href="tel:207-763-3261" value="+12077633261" target="_blank">207-763-3261</a><u></u><u></u></span></p> 
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           <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.openspaceworld.com%20" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">www.openspaceworld.com</span></a> <u></u><u></u></span></p> 
           <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.ho-image.com%20" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">www.ho-image.com</span></a> (Personal Website)<u></u><u></u></span></p> 
           <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1f497d">To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to:<a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p> 
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           <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>christine koehler<br /> <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 04, 2014 2:35 PM</span></p>
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             <b>To:</b> World wide Open Space Technology email list
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             <b>Subject:</b> Re: [OSList] Open Space and Holacracy
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                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">This reminds me of a very short conversation I had with a participant of the Practice of Peace seminar last January. He had left Zappos not so long ago. We exchanged a few words about the ambiguity  of Tony Hsieh mandating Zappos to become holacratic, because it was his own personal vision.<u></u><u></u></p> 
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               <p class="MsoNormal">I find very interesting this tension between personal vision (think about Gore for instance or Semler and Semco) and self-organization. <u></u><u></u></p>
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              <p class="MsoNormal">looks very complex and human to me ;)<u></u><u></u></p> 
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              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">but stlll wondering how self-organization fits within this kind of frame.<br /><br /><u></u><u></u></p>
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             <p class="MsoNormal">Christine <u></u><u></u></p>
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              <p class="MsoNormal"> On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Harrison Owen <<a href="mailto:hhowen@verizon.net" target="_blank">hhowen@verizon.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Christine, Zappo Holarchs &#x201c;rolled out&#x201d; according to the following... Sounds like sort of a mandate to me. ho</span><u></u><u></u></p> 
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                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="http://qz.com/161210/zappos-is-going-holacratic-no-job-titles-no-managers-no-hierarchy" target="_blank">http://qz.com/161210/zappos-is-going-holacratic-no-job-titles-no-managers-no-hierarchy</a> </span><u></u><u></u></p> 
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                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Harrison Owen</span><u></u><u></u></p> 
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">7808 River Falls Dr.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Potomac, MD 20854</span><u></u><u></u></p> 
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">USA</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p> 
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Camden, Maine 04843</span><u></u><u></u></p> 
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                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Phone <a href="tel:301-365-2093" value="+13013652093" target="_blank">301-365-2093</a></span><u></u><u></u></p> 
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">(summer)  <a href="tel:207-763-3261" value="+12077633261" target="_blank">207-763-3261</a></span><u></u><u></u></p> 
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p> 
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.openspaceworld.com%20" target="_blank">www.openspaceworld.com</a> </span><u></u><u></u></p> 
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.ho-image.com%20" target="_blank">www.ho-image.com</a> (Personal Website)</span><u></u><u></u></p> 
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1f497d">To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to:<a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" target="_blank">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a></span><u></u><u></u></p> 
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                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Christine Whitney Sanchez<br /> <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 04, 2014 12:46 PM</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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                    <p class="MsoNormal"><br /><b>To:</b> World wide Open Space Technology email list<br /><b>Subject:</b> Re: [OSList] Open Space and Holacracy<u></u><u></u></p> 
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                  <p class="MsoNormal">Great post, Daniel.  Our company worked with Tony Hseigh&#x2019;s Downtown Las Vegas Project last year and found the whole thing to be very self-organizing.  <u></u><u></u></p> 
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                   <p class="MsoNormal">I&#x2019;m surprised that Zappos is imposing any kind of mandate - where did you discover this?<u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Namasté,<br /><br />Christine <br /><br />Christine Whitney Sanchez, Partner<br />Innovation Partners International<br /> Phoenix, AZ, USA  <a href="tel:%2B1.480.759.0262" target="_blank">+1.480.759.0262</a><br /><a href="http://www.innovationpartners.com" target="_blank">www.innovationpartners.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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                     <p class="MsoNormal"><img src="cid:image001.png@01CF37CE.B8C395D0" border="0" height="62" width="162" /><u></u><u></u></p>
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                      <p class="MsoNormal">On Mar 4, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Dan Mezick <<a href="mailto:dan@newtechusa.net" target="_blank">dan@newtechusa.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p> 
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                       <p class="MsoNormal">An invitation arouses curiousity, but a mandate dries up <u></u><u></u></p>
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                       <p class="MsoNormal">the bones... Ancient Proverb<u></u><u></u></p> 
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                       <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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                       <p class="MsoNormal">The Mandate of Holacracy at Zappos:<u></u><u></u></p>
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                       <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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                       <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:".HelveticaNeueUI""><a href="http://newtechusa.net/agile/the-mandate-of-holacracy-at-zappos/" target="_blank">http://newtechusa.net/agile/the-mandate-of-holacracy-at-zappos/</a></span><br /> <br />Sent from my iPhone<u></u><u></u></p>
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                       <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br />On Mar 4, 2014, at 11:36 AM, "Harrison Owen" <<a href="mailto:hhowen@verizon.net" target="_blank">hhowen@verizon.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p> 
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                       <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Wikipedia (as usual) has everything you wanted to know... go to --<br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holacracy" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holacracy</a> <br /> <br />I can certainly imagine Open Space playing a role in Holacracies, and in<br />fact the "governance" in a Open Space could certainly be described as<br />"Holacratic" -- which is to say "ruling power" is totally distributed<br /> amongst the participants. But there is a real difference. Holacracy in Open<br />Space is totally an emergent phenomenon. Nobody designed it, nobody<br />implements it -- it just shows up all by itself. Holacracy in places like<br /> Zappos is a designed phenomenon. Doubtless it works pretty well, but it does<br />seem to me that they may be working a little too hard, creating something<br />that can and does happen all by itself. I think.<br /><br />Harrison<br /> <br />Harrison Owen<br />7808 River Falls Dr.<br />Potomac, MD 20854<br />USA<br /><br />189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)<br />Camden, Maine 04843<br /><br />Phone <a href="tel:301-365-2093" value="+13013652093" target="_blank">301-365-2093</a><br /> (summer)  <a href="tel:207-763-3261" value="+12077633261" target="_blank">207-763-3261</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.openspaceworld.com/" target="_blank">www.openspaceworld.com</a> <br /> <a href="http://www.ho-image.com/" target="_blank">www.ho-image.com</a> (Personal Website)<br />To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST<br />Go to:http://<a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" target="_blank">lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><br /> <br />-----Original Message-----<br />From: <a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br />[<a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>] On Behalf Of Kári Gunnarsson<br /> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 11:20 AM<br />To: World wide Open Space Technology email list<br />Subject: Re: [OSList] Open Space and Holacracy<br /><br />I heard that Holacracy is somehow based upon the principles of Open Space<br /> and uses Open space for its implementation.<br /><br />On 4 March 2014 08:53, Rob van der Eyden<br /><<a href="mailto:robvandereyden@veranderarchitect.nl" target="_blank">robvandereyden@veranderarchitect.nl</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p> 
                       <p class="MsoNormal">Hello Kári,<u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal"> Interesting question. How do you see the link between Open space and <u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">Holacracy?<u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">Kind regards, Rob van der Eyden<u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----<u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">Van: <a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">[<a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>] Namens Kári Gunnarsson<u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">Verzonden: maandag 3 maart 2014 21:52<u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">Aan: Open Space Forum<u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">Onderwerp: [OSList] Open Space and Holacracy<u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">There have been much talk about the relationship of the organizational <u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">chart and how Open Space operates. Recent compareson to me has been to <u></u><u></u></p> 
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">link the new self-organizing authority and decision-making system <u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">called Holacracy<u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">see: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holacracy" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holacracy</a><u></u><u></u></p> 
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                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">I wonder if there are stories on the use of Open space to transform <u></u><u></u></p> 
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">more traditional system to one of Open Space based Holacracy?  I would <u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">be happy to learn some of your experiences in this regard.<u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">--<u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">Kári Gunnarsson<u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:kari.gunnarsson@simnet.is" target="_blank">kari.gunnarsson@simnet.is</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">gsm: <a href="tel:%2B354%208645189" target="_blank">+354 8645189</a><u></u><u></u></p> 
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                        <p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></p> 
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                       <p class="MsoNormal"> <br /><br /><br />--<br />Kári Gunnarsson<br /><a href="mailto:kari.gunnarsson@simnet.is" target="_blank">kari.gunnarsson@simnet.is</a><br />gsm: <a href="tel:%2B354%208645189" target="_blank">+354 8645189</a><br />_______________________________________________<br /> OSList mailing list<br />To post send emails to <a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a> To unsubscribe send an<br />email to <a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br /> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br /><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" target="_blank">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><br /> <br />_______________________________________________<br />OSList mailing list<br />To post send emails to <a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br />To unsubscribe send an email to <a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br /> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br /><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" target="_blank">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><u></u><u></u></p> 
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             <p class="MsoNormal"><br /><br clear="all" /><br />-- <u></u><u></u></p>
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              <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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         <p><img src="http://uploads.wisestamp.com/59a7171fcb010f7c1cffbbe7e93ad57d/1320761435.png" alt="Christine Koehler, créatrice d'espace de Dialogue et de Coopération" height="17" width="96" /><span style="font-family:verdana,geneva"><font size="1"><br />  Executive Coach, Médiateur</font></span><font size="1"><br /><span style="font-family:verdana,geneva"> <a href="http://www.christine-koehler.fr/" target="_blank">www.christine-koehler.fr</a></span><br /><span style="font-family:verdana,geneva"> Tel :  06 13 28 71 38</span><br /> <span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"" lang="EN-US">  Fax :    </span>09  72  32 36  65</font><br /><a href="http://christine-koehler.fr/2013/formation-de-levenement-au-processus-avril-2013/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-size:x-small;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" target="_blank"></a><font size="1"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"" lang="EN-US"></span></font></p> 
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  <p>--</p> 
  <p>David Osborne</p> 
  <p style="text-align: left;"><img src="http://www.change-fusion.com/ChangeFusionLogo.jpg" alt="" width="150" height="58" /></p> 
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