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    Hi Michael...<br>
    <br>
    So interesting this phrase: <br>
    <br>
    "...Sort of a permaculture for
    <br>
        human systems."<br>
    <br>
    Organizational Permaculture is a interesting idea. <br>
    <br>
    A little while ago, I think in late 2012, I set up a Facebook group
    to discuss the application of Permaculture concepts to
    organizations...it has over 100 of members now...here is the link:
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/147096195442450/">https://www.facebook.com/groups/147096195442450/</a>. OST is a prime
    example of an OrgPerma practice. I hope you will consider taking a
    look.<br>
    <br>
    Kind Regards,<br>
    Dan<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/10/14 4:03 AM, Michael M Pannwitz
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:52CFB756.2070804@gmail.com" type="cite">Here
      is a link to a long list of measures the European Union is
      employing
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ec.europa.eu/education/programmes/llp/guide/glossary_en.html">http://ec.europa.eu/education/programmes/llp/guide/glossary_en.html</a>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      mmp
      <br>
      <br>
      On 10.01.2014 08:55, christine koehler wrote:
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">Thank you Peggy and David
        <br>
        <br>
        I' will  think over all your answers
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 6:03 AM, Peggy Holman
        <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:peggy@peggyholman.com">peggy@peggyholman.com</a>
        <br>
        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peggy@peggyholman.com"><mailto:peggy@peggyholman.com></a>> wrote:
        <br>
        <br>
            I have a different response to Christine’s question:
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">     if we want to keep the system
          healthy and alive, what should  we
          <br>
              do ?”
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
            I’d say take responsibility for what you love.
        <br>
        <br>
            A system exists through the interactions among its diverse
        agents.
        <br>
            Some of those agents, whether in an organism or in an
        organization,
        <br>
            attend to the system’s health. Think of the role of kidneys
        for
        <br>
            flushing out toxins. In human systems, people, rather than
        cells,
        <br>
            organize stuff. You could argue that hierarchies are an
        <br>
            overcompensation of a system that ultimately leaves
        unflushed
        <br>
            toxicity in its wake, sometimes killing off the
        organization. Or at
        <br>
            least making it function in less optimal ways.
        <br>
        <br>
            As David said, as we come to understand principles of
        <br>
            self-organizing, we’re better equipped to do stuff that is
        congruent
        <br>
            with natural patterns. I think current trends towards
        network forms
        <br>
            of organizing are a promising experiment in a system’s
        agents
        <br>
            working with those natural principles. Sort of a
        permaculture for
        <br>
            human systems.
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
            Christine, to your questions about size:
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">    But then how do you do with very
          large systems ? Or does it mean
          <br>
              that any system that is too large to come regularly
          together as a
          <br>
              whole is oversized ? should split into several smaller
          systems to
          <br>
              keep its good health
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
            Important questions. I suspect as we learn more about how
        networks
        <br>
            function, the answers to your questions will get clearer. I
        can only
        <br>
            speculate. I can imagine people meeting on behalf of the
        whole in
        <br>
            transparent ways that are open to anyone who cares to show
        up. And
        <br>
            if overwhelming numbers want to be there, perhaps
        intersecting
        <br>
            circles come into play.  Layers of wholeness exist in
        systems. So
        <br>
            those who feel called to convene on behalf of the whole take
        <br>
            responsibility for it. And connect with others who share in
        that
        <br>
            sort of stewarding function. Holding it all lightly and not
        working
        <br>
            too hard, of course. :-)
        <br>
        <br>
            Just mulling…
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
            Peggy
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
            _________________________________
        <br>
            Peggy Holman
        <br>
            <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:peggy@peggyholman.com">peggy@peggyholman.com</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peggy@peggyholman.com"><mailto:peggy@peggyholman.com></a>
        <br>
            Twitter: @peggyholman
        <br>
        <br>
            15347 SE 49th Place
        <br>
            Bellevue, WA  98006
        <br>
            425-746-6274
        <br>
            <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.peggyholman.com">www.peggyholman.com</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.peggyholman.com"><http://www.peggyholman.com></a>
        <br>
            <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.journalismthatmatters.org">www.journalismthatmatters.org</a>
        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.journalismthatmatters.org"><http://www.journalismthatmatters.org></a>
        <br>
        <br>
            *Enjoy the award winning *Engaging Emergence: Turning
        Upheaval into
        <br>
            Opportunity
        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://peggyholman.com/papers/engaging-emergence/"><http://peggyholman.com/papers/engaging-emergence/></a>
        <br>
            Check out my series on what's emerging in the news &
        information
        <br>
            ecosystem
        <br>
           
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.journalismthatmatters.net/the_emerging_news_and_information_eco_system"><http://www.journalismthatmatters.net/the_emerging_news_and_information_eco_system></a><br>
        <br>
            "An angel told me that the only way to step into the fire
        and not
        <br>
            get burnt, is to become
        <br>
            the fire".
        <br>
               -- Drew Dellinger
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
            On Jan 9, 2014, at 5:00 PM, David Osborne
        <br>
            <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dosborne@change-fusion.com">dosborne@change-fusion.com</a>
        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dosborne@change-fusion.com"><mailto:dosborne@change-fusion.com></a>> wrote:
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">    Christine,
          <br>
          <br>
               I think the tendency toward coherence or fragmentation is
          the
          <br>
              organizing principle.
          <br>
          <br>
              I see supporting coherence as a part of the process, not
          an
          <br>
              organizing principle in itself. It's a choice, similar to
          the
          <br>
              other individual and group choices that are a part of
          <br>
              self-organization.
          <br>
          <br>
              Most of us here on the list serve choose to facilitate /
          host open
          <br>
              space sessions. I'd suggest this choice usually leads to
          building
          <br>
              coherence. So it is with other coherence supporting
          choices.The
          <br>
              system may or may not do it itself.
          <br>
          <br>
              Another way I would frame it is that organizations I
          frequently
          <br>
              work in are stuck in patterns that they are dissatisfied
          or
          <br>
              frustrated with. Think poor business results, customer
          <br>
              satisfaction, work environment, employee engagement /
          satisfaction
          <br>
              etc. Control is the great inhibitor of self-organization
          and often
          <br>
              prevents new coherent patterns being able to emerge.  I
          find that
          <br>
              I can often guide or make suggestions that enable these
          groups to
          <br>
              tap into the power of organization to create new
          self-reinforcng
          <br>
              patterns that they prefer. And my involvement and the
          choice to be
          <br>
              open to my suggestions are all choices that are part of
          the
          <br>
              self-organization. I'm suggesting that we / they that
          support
          <br>
              coherence are also part of the self-organizing, not
          separate from it.
          <br>
          <br>
              I don't mean to be cryptic in my above comments. I find
          myself
          <br>
              continuing to build my own (and hopefully shared) language
          that
          <br>
              describes self-organization. I loved the statement earlier
          in this
          <br>
              exchange that compared self-organization to gravity. I do
          believe
          <br>
              they are both laws that operate invisibly all the time.
          The point
          <br>
              made was that understanding gravity is key to being able
          to fly to
          <br>
              the moon. I think similarly the more we understand and can
          share
          <br>
              the principles of self-organization, we can help humanity
          fly
          <br>
              versus staying stuck in conflict and competition.Thus my
          continual
          <br>
              search to find better ways of sharing and communicating.
          <br>
          <br>
              I'm really enjoying tracking and participating in this
          dialogue
          <br>
              and thanks to all that are contributing and
          listening/reading.
          <br>
          <br>
              David
          <br>
              703-939-1777
          <br>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dosborne@change-fusion.com">dosborne@change-fusion.com</a>
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dosborne@change-fusion.com"><mailto:dosborne@change-fusion.com></a>
          <br>
              <image.png>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
              On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Christine
          <br>
              <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chris.alice.koehler@gmail.com">chris.alice.koehler@gmail.com</a>
          <br>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:chris.alice.koehler@gmail.com"><mailto:chris.alice.koehler@gmail.com></a>> wrote:
          <br>
          <br>
                  Hi David
          <br>
          <br>
                  Very interesting, that makes sense to me. Does it mean
          that
          <br>
                  supporting coherence of the system as a whole should
          be an
          <br>
                  organizing principle ?
          <br>
                  But then Harrison will say I guess that it is not
          necessary,
          <br>
                  as self org. will take care of the system itself.
          <br>
                  Then there is something that I don't understand about
          <br>
                  self-org. : if we want to keep the system healthy and
          alive,
          <br>
                  what should  we do ?
          <br>
          <br>
                  Christine Koehler
          <br>
                  06 13 28 71 38 <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="tel:06%2013%2028%2071%2038"><tel:06%2013%2028%2071%2038></a>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
                  Le 9 janv. 2014 à 22:20, David Osborne <
          <br>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dosborne@change-fusion.com">dosborne@change-fusion.com</a>
          <br>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dosborne@change-fusion.com"><mailto:dosborne@change-fusion.com></a>> a écrit
          :
          <br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite">        I found the questions about
            how do you keep a system as a
            <br>
                    coherent whole fascinating.
            <br>
            <br>
                    Part of the dance is the back and forth between
            coherence and
            <br>
                    fragmentation. Chaos offers both opportunity and
            threat, new
            <br>
                    life and death. Coherence leads to new life patterns
            <br>
                    emerging, fragmentation leads towards death and the
            cycle
            <br>
                    toward new life continues. In my experience there is
            lot's
            <br>
                    that can be done to reinforce, nurture and support
            coherence.
            <br>
                    Holding the space is one aspect. Drawing attention
            and
            <br>
                    building consensus around what is emerging is
            another,
            <br>
                    supporting parts of the system through conflict in a
            manner
            <br>
                    that continues to increase the likelihood of
            coherence is a
            <br>
                    third. There are many more...and those are some
            quick
            <br>
                    thoughts for now. All of this can and is done with
            in the
            <br>
                    context of self-organization and someone having the
            passion
            <br>
                    and taking the initiative to do it. The two are not
            mutually
            <br>
                    exclusive.
            <br>
            <br>
                    Cheers to all.
            <br>
            <br>
                    David
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
                    On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 4:06 PM, christine koehler
            <br>
                    <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chris.alice.koehler@gmail.com">chris.alice.koehler@gmail.com</a>
            <br>
                    <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:chris.alice.koehler@gmail.com"><mailto:chris.alice.koehler@gmail.com></a>>
            wrote:
            <br>
            <br>
                        Peggy
            <br>
            <br>
                        If I simplify what you say (and I apologize for
            it), I
            <br>
                        understand that  you say that what keep a
            self-organized
            <br>
                        system coherent as a whole is coming regularly
            together
            <br>
                        as a whole, following our two feet to sessions
            called
            <br>
                        around we love, coming back as a whole,
            dispersing again
            <br>
                        for the evening. Of course I would tend to agree
            with
            <br>
                        that. But then how do you do with very large
            systems ? Or
            <br>
                        does it mean that any system that is too large
            to come
            <br>
                        regularly together as a whole is oversized ?
            should split
            <br>
                        into several smaller systems to keep its good
            health ?
            <br>
            <br>
                        and what about decision making ?
            <br>
            <br>
                        Christine
            <br>
                        end an email to
            <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a>
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      <p class="p1">Daniel Mezick, President</p>
      <p class="p1">New Technology Solutions Inc.</p>
      <p class="p1">(203) 915 7248 (cell)</p>
      <p class="p2"><span class="s1"><a
            href="http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/">Bio</a></span><span
          class="s2">. <a href="http://newtechusa.net/blog/"><span
              class="s1">Blog</span></a>. <a
            href="http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/"><span class="s1">Twitter</span></a>.<span
            class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
      <p class="p3"><span class="s2">Examine my new book:<span
            class="Apple-converted-space">  </span><a
            href="http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/"><span
              class="s1">The Culture Game </span></a></span><span
          class="s1">: Tools for the Agile Manager</span><span
          class="s2">.</span></p>
      <p class="p1">Explore Agile Team <a
          href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/"><span
            class="s3">Training</span></a> and <a
          href="http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/"><span
            class="s3">Coaching.</span></a></p>
      <p class="p1">Explore the <a
          href="http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/"><span class="s3">Agile
            Boston </span></a>Community.<span
          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
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