<div dir="ltr"><div><div>Michael: ULtrech seams to e a place way to far from Montreal but I like the "?" in a paper idea. Lisa Heft has done several "conversations" in silence in the wososnos and they were ones of the best ones! <br>
</div>Thank you for this invitation any way!<br></div>Adriana<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2013/10/26 Michael M Pannwitz <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mmpannwitz@gmail.com" target="_blank">mmpannwitz@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Adriana and all you others looking for a space to reflect on whatever the question might be, consider coming to Utrecht, or better yet: you need to come to Utrecht. Its a full blown three day os, no frills attached, exactly for the issues people bring along, no matter how clear they are on them...I have seen people go to the center, look at the sheets of paper, pick one up, stand up in front of the group, dont say a word, go to the bulletin board, post it AND have a crowd of people showing up at their session! (One of my friends has a slight variation on this, he just puts a "?" on the sheet, also draws a crowd). So I know I am never alone with my question.<br>
I am thinking of this question: How do I excert control and what for? or What does control do to me? ... I know I am not alone in this, look at poor Ms Merkel being controlled by people listening in on what she talks about on her mobile, for some of the stuff she would probably be blacklisted and be surprised one day that nobody will hire her.<br>
<br>
Right, lets meet in Utrecht or any other place (there are some Basques meeting at the same time in Basque country somewhere within Spain),<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
mmp<br>
<br>
On 26.10.2013 16:34, Lourdes Adriana Diaz-Berrio Doring wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Reading your conversation made me think that a very good OS theme would<br>
be about how new relationships start, for friends and other types<br>
because so many people are using a lot of time looking for some "goal"<br>
or "tarjet" in this sites where you ara suposed to find your "soulmate"<br>
...a lot of time is wasted socialy i Think!<br>
And there is a need for a space to meet that's for shure.<br>
But it would be so nice to have an OS where we could reflect together<br>
about this kind of issues about control, surprise, willing to provoque a<br>
specific reaction on the other person.<br>
But it is not clear in my mind how the question could be framed but I<br>
feel there is a need for a space where people having this issues could<br>
talk and reflect about this topics. And see also that they are not alone<br>
in this.<br>
Adriana<br>
<br>
<br>
2013/10/26 Daniel Mezick <<a href="mailto:dan@newtechusa.net" target="_blank">dan@newtechusa.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:dan@newtechusa.net" target="_blank">dan@newtechusa.net</a>>><br>
<br>
A wonderful conversation in the works...my replies appear below...<br>
<br>
On 10/24/13 1:29 PM, Jenifer Toksvig wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Dan wrote: >> Consider the man who loves a certain woman, and<br>
waits for the current trend of her interest in him to change. He<br>
is goal seeking without controlling. Likewise, trend-following<br>
market traders do not attempt to create, control or make trends.<br>
They simply identify & ride them, while seeking wealth. <<<br>
<br>
Waiting and seeking are still forms of controlling.<br>
</blockquote>
Yes, they are forms of governing one self. Actually, this is a very<br>
narrow and focused form of control: control of one's self. We often<br>
refer to this as 'discipline', which is distinct from the more<br>
general word 'control'. Self-discipline vs. attempted control of<br>
others, if you will.<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Your loving man has chosen to wait for his goal rather than (to<br>
coin a phrase) being prepared to be surprised by another woman.<br>
</blockquote>
The man in the hypothetical situation has a current goal, which is<br>
to be in relationship with a certain woman. He watches and follows<br>
the trend of her interest. This does not mean he is blind to what<br>
the wider environment might be offering now.<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
He may not be trying to control her, but he’s still trying to<br>
control the situation in a way that he thinks will allow him to<br>
achieve his goal.<br>
</blockquote>
It sounds like 'the situation' you mention above is: "him or her<br>
self." That's discipline of self, not control of others.<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Those who seek wealth do likewise: they don’t randomly ride the<br>
trends, they identify them and make choices about how to ride<br>
them, in order to obtain wealth. That is control.<br>
</blockquote>
Um, if you mean control of one's responses, if you mean<br>
self-goverance, self-discipline then yes. Controlling one self is<br>
generally a good idea, is it not?<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I don’t think it’s possible to be goal-oriented and try to exert<br>
some kind of control over the process, unless your goal is… to<br>
have no goal.<br>
</blockquote>
I think you mean<br>
"...I don’t think it’s possible to be goal-oriented and NOT try to<br>
exert some kind of control over the process.."<br>
<br>
If that's the case, I agree 100% goal-oriented requires<br>
self-control, aka "discipline". Trend-trading markets traders<br>
without discipline routinely lose money. Individuals without<br>
self-control routinely create problems for themselves.<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Actually, even being prepared to be surprised is a goal. A sort of<br>
wonderfully ridiculous one.<br>
</blockquote>
Yes, and the statement itself is: directive. Wait, whats that doing<br>
in OST?<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Jen x<br>
<br>
*Jenifer Toksvig<br>
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<br>
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