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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Phelim,<br>
<br>
Thanks so much for responding to the mention of the work of James
P. Carse again. It's such an elegant, simple, and yet profound
book. Many of the simplest sentences in the book almost sound like
poetry.<br>
<br>
"A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite
game for the purpose of continuing the play."<br>
<br>
Jane McGonical, author of "Reality is Broken" was aware of Carse's
work and quotes his distinction between finite and infinite games.
However, there are finite games where no one person has to win.
Alistair Cockburn, in his book "Agile Software Development", has a
chart which lists 3 categories of games:<br>
<br>
1. finite, goal-directed games<br>
2. finite, non-goal directed games<br>
3. infinite games.<br>
<br>
Interestingly, in the finite goal-directed he includes software
development. Because even in this realm of finite goal-directed
games, there doesn't have to be a single winner. Software
Development, perhaps like an Open Space Technology conference, is
a *NON-ZEROSUM GAME*.<br>
<br>
Alistair calls Software Development a "cooperative game of
invention and communication". An open space conference can also be
seen as a finite cooperative game. Maybe there is no goal we all
can declare victory with, but there's a theme, a purpose.<br>
<br>
Carse's work justifiably pillories the dreadful win/lose zero-sum
game philosophy prevalent in society. But I don't think Carse is
trying to eliminate goal seeking games. In fact, he even seems to
be opposed to getting rid of evil. "Evil arises in the honored
belief that history can be tidied up, brought to a sensible
conclusion... Infinite players recognize the inescapable
likelihood of evil. They therefore do not try to eliminate evil in
others, for to do so is the very impulse of evil itself, and
therefore a contradiction."<br>
<br>
But here's the real zinger of that chapter, "Evil is not the
inclusion of finite games in an infinite game, but the restriction
of all play to one or another finite game."<br>
<br>
The greater self-organizing principles and practice and philosophy
of Open Space Technology solidly resides in the realm of the one
infinite game, the game of life itself. And a well played Open
Space conference, we'll all be infinite players, also playing a
finite game and there will be many other invites to play finite
games - as a butterfly that attracts a butterfly session or
conversation, or as a regular session convener who announces in
the circle and posts something on the wall.<br>
<br>
Another example of a finite game serving an infinite one - we have
the example of improv games. A good improv instructor brings in
games to help the troupe or students advance in their infinite
game of just getting better at improvisation. Yet, the games
usually have a clear beginning and ending, wierd goals and
objectives and rules. But the ends are always ultimately playing
in the field of the infinite game. Of getting better.<br>
<br>
Sorry to poke Jane's ideas again into this forum - but it feels so
much in the spirit of Open Space to mention that one of Jane's
most powerful influences is Bernie DeKoven. Bernie was involved in
a sort of social movement in the seventies called the New Games
movement. The purpose of that movement was to "reinvent sports to
be more cooperative, more social, and more inclusive." Bernie was
one of the authors in 1976 of the out of print "New Games Book".
Bernie is a "leading play theorist" still today. He's very fond of
cooperative non-zero sum games. The article of Bernie's that Jane
read so often the page in her copy of the book is very worn is
"Creating the Play Community". In many ways, Jane's book is an
attempt to revive this cooperative and inclusive spirit of that
New Games movement - as part of the greater infinite game of life
- in the spirit and presence of community.<br>
<br>
And this is the same infinite game of life, that Open Space
Technology has contributed so elegantly and beautifully to. I'm
grateful to see us starting to notice each other - us wonderful
infinite players. Be it in games, agile, or open space
facilitation.<br>
<br>
Harold<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/23/13 2:15 PM, Phelim McDermott wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:47ED938C-F2F8-4076-A46F-3B24057FCF12@mac.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
<div>Hi Paul and all </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>....also here we come back to Carse's distinction between a
finite and an infinite game. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A finite game has a goal..... to win. (Our predominant
culture)<br>
an infinite game is played for the pleasure of the game itself..</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>if life were played for the infinite game as apposed to the
finite game our society would be different..</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>this is Carse's thesis as I understand it. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think when i discovered OST i realised it was the infinite
game possibility that flirted with my interest. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>however as Carse says an infinite game can easily and often
is played as a finite game.. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Phelim McDermott</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>________________________________</div>
<div><br>
</div>
I generally pick up<span class="Apple-style-span"
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<div>@openspacer</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On 21 Oct 2013, at 22:46, paul levy <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:paul@cats3000.net">paul@cats3000.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Or maybe goal setting is just another gorgeous example
of the mystery of self-organisation ?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Those who cannot hear the music think that the dancer is
mad...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Warm wishes </div>
<div>
Paul Levy<br>
<br>
On Monday, 21 October 2013, Harrison Owen wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">John
I like what you say... and given the (only) two
conclusions I have managed to reach after all
these years: A) All systems are open. B) All
systems are self organizing... the devil draws me
to a third conclusion. Goal seeking systems are
purely a figment of our imagination created in a
desperate attempt to satisfy our unending (and
futile) need for control. You know the scenario.
We (I) created it, We (I) set the goals, We (I)
control... Lovely idea, but it never happened and
never will. Of course, that is all pure
speculation and heresy.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Harrison</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Harrison
Owen</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="x-apple-data-detectors://2">7808 River
Falls Dr.</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="x-apple-data-detectors://3">Potomac, MD
20854</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">USA</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="x-apple-data-detectors://4">189
Beaucaire Ave.</a> (summer)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="x-apple-data-detectors://5">Camden,
Maine 04843</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Phone
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:301-365-2093">301-365-2093</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">(summer)
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:207-763-3261">207-763-3261</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.openspaceworld.com%20"
target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">www.openspaceworld.com</span></a>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ho-image.com%20"
target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">www.ho-image.com</span></a>
(Personal Website)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1f497d">To
subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of OSLIST Go to:<a
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org');"
target="_blank">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org');"
target="_blank">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Watkins<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 11:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> World wide Open Space Technology
email list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [OSList] The OST Game</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't think self organizing systems are goal
seeking systems. By definition, goal seeking
systems are homeostatic, and not emergent or
transformational. I think self organizing systems
are purpose seeking systems; hence, as Peggy says,
always looking for new meanings to emerge in a
dialectic of emergence, but never settling into any
one final "eternal return," like "strange
attractors," always wobbling into new versions of
themselves. I think the question of game vs. not
game might be solved by saying emergent self
organizing systems are systems at play, "lila" in
the tantric view, "the play of the goddess,"
indeterminate, recursive, entangled, confounding
traditional goal seeking or linear causal or
probabilistic behavior.</p>
<div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>John</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p>On Oct 20, 2013, at 7:43 AM, Peggy Holman
wrote:</p>
</div>
<p><br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p>Great thread!</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>To Paul's question</p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
what is the goal (if any) of
self-organizing behavior?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p>Harrison referenced one of Kauffman's
conditions for self-organizing -- the
search for fitness.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>I believe that in human systems, the
search for fitness looks like a search
for meaning. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Harrison said:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif"">You
don’t have a self without a world,
nor do you have a world without
selves. It is not one OR the other,
but definitely a both/and.
Dialectic, polar, all at once. Nice
I always thought.</span></p>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<p><span
style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif""><br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif"">Nice
thing about a search for meaning.
It can start as a solo act. And
you may pick up friends along the
way. Sometimes that evolves into a
movement (Agile, Open Space, etc.).
And sometimes it even disappears
into a world view. </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif""><br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif"">Or
not.</span></p>
<p><br>
Peggy</p>
<div>
<p>Sent from my iPad</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:425-746-6274">425-746-6274</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.peggyholman.com/"
target="_blank">www.peggyholman.com</a></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Oct 15, 2013, at 3:59 AM, "Harrison
Owen" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hhowen@verizon.net">hhowen@verizon.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Dan
said: : “what is the goal (if any)
of self-organizing behavior?” Good
question indeed. Stuart Kaufmann
(Biologist) says that one of the
conditions for self organization
is what he calls, “The search for
fitness.” I take this to be a
modification of Darwin’s “Survival
of the fittest.” The idea is that
self organizing systems engage in
a search for ways to enhance the
way they fit with the environment
and fit together internally. Those
most fully aligned with the
environment, with all their parts
engaged tend to survive. Works for
me.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Harrison</span></p>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Harrison
Owen</span><</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Harold Shinsato<br>
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