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Yes, and not every goal seeker is a control freak. Some of us are
quite the opposite.<br>
<br>
Consider the man who loves a certain woman, and waits for the
current trend of her interest in him to change. He is goal seeking
without controlling.<br>
<br>
Likewise, trend-following market traders do not attempt to create,
control or make trends. They simply identify & ride them, while
seeking wealth. <br>
<br>
In both cases, there is goal-seeking without a controlling spirit.<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/21/13 5:46 PM, paul levy wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAAnJsbCfk5rRnYC=sQB_oPnqhr-BH--pqCBDH+gyhtQYmYyCOA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Or maybe goal setting is just another gorgeous example
of the mystery of self-organisation ?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Those who cannot hear the music think that the dancer is
mad...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Warm wishes </div>
<div>
Paul Levy<br>
<br>
On Monday, 21 October 2013, Harrison Owen wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">John
I like what you say... and given the (only) two
conclusions I have managed to reach after all these
years: A) All systems are open. B) All systems are
self organizing... the devil draws me to a third
conclusion. Goal seeking systems are purely a figment
of our imagination created in a desperate attempt to
satisfy our unending (and futile) need for control.
You know the scenario. We (I) created it, We (I) set
the goals, We (I) control... Lovely idea, but it never
happened and never will. Of course, that is all pure
speculation and heresy.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Harrison</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Harrison
Owen</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="x-apple-data-detectors://2">7808 River Falls
Dr.</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="x-apple-data-detectors://3">Potomac, MD
20854</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">USA</span></p>
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="x-apple-data-detectors://4">189 Beaucaire
Ave.</a> (summer)</span></p>
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<span
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1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:_e({},
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'oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org');"
target="_blank">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Watkins<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 11:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> World wide Open Space Technology email
list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [OSList] The OST Game</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't think self organizing systems are goal seeking
systems. By definition, goal seeking systems are
homeostatic, and not emergent or transformational. I
think self organizing systems are purpose seeking
systems; hence, as Peggy says, always looking for new
meanings to emerge in a dialectic of emergence, but
never settling into any one final "eternal return," like
"strange attractors," always wobbling into new versions
of themselves. I think the question of game vs. not
game might be solved by saying emergent self organizing
systems are systems at play, "lila" in the tantric view,
"the play of the goddess," indeterminate, recursive,
entangled, confounding traditional goal seeking or
linear causal or probabilistic behavior.</p>
<div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>John</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p>On Oct 20, 2013, at 7:43 AM, Peggy Holman
wrote:</p>
</div>
<p><br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p>Great thread!</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>To Paul's question</p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
what is the goal (if any) of
self-organizing behavior?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p>Harrison referenced one of Kauffman's
conditions for self-organizing -- the
search for fitness.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>I believe that in human systems, the
search for fitness looks like a search for
meaning. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Harrison said:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif"">You
don’t have a self without a world, nor
do you have a world without selves. It
is not one OR the other, but definitely
a both/and. Dialectic, polar, all at
once. Nice I always thought.</span></p>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<p><span
style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif""><br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif"">Nice
thing about a search for meaning. It
can start as a solo act. And you may
pick up friends along the way.
Sometimes that evolves into a movement
(Agile, Open Space, etc.). And sometimes
it even disappears into a world view. </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif""><br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody","serif"">Or
not.</span></p>
<p><br>
Peggy</p>
<div>
<p>Sent from my iPad</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:425-746-6274">425-746-6274</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.peggyholman.com/"
target="_blank">www.peggyholman.com</a></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Oct 15, 2013, at 3:59 AM, "Harrison
Owen" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hhowen@verizon.net">hhowen@verizon.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Dan
said: : “what is the goal (if any) of
self-organizing behavior?” Good
question indeed. Stuart Kaufmann
(Biologist) says that one of the
conditions for self organization is
what he calls, “The search for
fitness.” I take this to be a
modification of Darwin’s “Survival of
the fittest.” The idea is that self
organizing systems engage in a search
for ways to enhance the way they fit
with the environment and fit together
internally. Those most fully aligned
with the environment, with all their
parts engaged tend to survive. Works
for me.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Harrison</span></p>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Harrison
Owen</span><</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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