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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks Harrison, I *think* I hear what
you're saying. There is a lot of cultural baggage around the word
game. But I'm really not hearing that you're getting what I'm
saying.<br>
<br>
As I tried to convey unsuccessfully alas, and maybe this is a dead
letter attempt and I should only speak latin here (being in Rome),
but there is no REAL vs. SIMULATION context at all in what Dan or
I are trying to convey. That's why I quoted Dr. Carse about there
being "only one infinite game". We are addressing a very REAL
game. The game of Life. Not fake or pretend.<br>
<br>
The sense of the word game that is being put forward as helpful to
this community is not in any way restricted to the software
community. There certainly are insights coming from the world of
game design that have been referenced earlier - and which even
from your own writings in the use of the term 'play' that feel in
alignment with what this community is trying to accomplish. And
this is also an area of growing popular interest.<br>
<br>
Case in point - Jane McGonigal wrote a best seller "Reality is
Broken" which includes much relevant modern psychology as well as
ideas from game design which is driving real and palpable
investments in an extremely broad community, including for example
social justice. Her basic thesis is that we can bring insights
from what she speaks of as a huge abandonment and immigration away
from "Reality" into the "Pretend" world of flickering images and
twitching fingers on gaming console buttons, to fix reality to
make it more fun and engaging so more people can work on real
problems but with the benefits of the insights from good game
design.<br>
<br>
The realm of the word "game" is rich with opportunity and actual
investments that will not just help engage the software community,
but everyone.<br>
<br>
Harold<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/9/13 9:10 AM, Harrison Owen wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Harold
– Conversation surely continues! Never fear!! And I surely
hear what you are saying, but as I commented to Dan in a
private note – “Never fear Dan. I think I do understand. As
an old gamer, having used both the theory and practice
extensively in the ‘70’s for the development of health care
policy and programs, I am profoundly aware of the power and
the possibilities. As I used to say in those ancient days –
Gaming allows us to do in pretend time what is impossible or
illegal to do in real time. Covers a lot of bases and gets a
lot done. That said, I would never use gaming when I could
play for real. I just went for it. I think that may be the
source of my discomfort when “game” is attached to OS. As
far as I am concerned – when in Open Space, we are “going
for it for real.” It ain’t a game.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Your
use of the words and concepts certainly make sense given the
context and the community you are addressing (Agile, Scrum,
etc.) But I am just not sure that they translate well into a
broader and different community. I have and certainly can be
very wrong, but I’ve always found that when in Rome a little
Latin will do </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My
real point is that when seeking to help us understand what
Dan is all about (and it is a marvelous project), his
phrasing may not be the most felicitous. Then again my
difficulty may well be an advanced case of hardening of the
neuronal pathways. Happens </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Harrison<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Harrison
Owen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">7808
River Falls Dr.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Potomac,
MD 20854<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">USA<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">189
Beaucaire Ave. (summer)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Camden,
Maine 04843<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Phone
301-365-2093<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">(summer)
207-763-3261<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="www.openspaceworld.com%20"><span
style="color:blue">www.openspaceworld.com</span></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="www.ho-image.com%20"><span
style="color:blue">www.ho-image.com</span></a>
(Personal Website)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">To
subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the
archives of OSLIST Go to:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Harold Shinsato [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:harold@shinsato.com">mailto:harold@shinsato.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 09, 2013 9:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> World wide Open Space Technology email list<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Harrison Owen<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [OSList] The OST Game<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Harrison,<br>
<br>
Ok, I'll take your word from previous posts that I won't be
in trouble if I risk going up against you again - or maybe
it's just a hope that this thread won't be shut down due to
misunderstandings.<br>
<br>
The statement "OST is a game" actually doesn't work for me
so much because it uncomfortably reduces all the ideas and
philosophy (and practice) of OST into a word that
unfortunately has for many negative connotations. But
perhaps I'll invite thinking about OST *as* a game instead.
Perhaps that can help prevent cognitive dissonance and allow
for this conversation to continue.<br>
<br>
My understanding of the word game as used by Daniel Mezick
and others comes from game theory - and could open up many
benefits.<br>
<br>
The briefest way I think to hope to keep this particular
door open for those in this community who might find the
word game unpleasant would be to suggest the book "Finite
and Infinite Games: A Vision of Life as Play and
Possibility" by James P. Carse. Mr. Carse actually is a
professor of history and literature of religion - and his
thinking in that book is very poetic and beautiful. And it
reminds me much of Open Space thinking - and I won't even
attempt to dive into his thesis any more than to look at
what I think sums up the thinking being the final sentence
in the book. "There is only one infinite game."<br>
<br>
The bigger game of Open Space is the game of life - the
unending story - the "one infinite game". And an OST meeting
or conference is a finite game which seems to open up an
experience of the infinite game in a beautiful way. And yet,
there's still value in seeing the finite game aspects of OST
in that context.<br>
<br>
Alas, perhaps this attempt will be futile. But I hold out
hope that others won't be discouraged from this perspective
on OST as a game and it's benefits.<br>
<br>
Harold<br>
<br>
On 10/7/13 1:25 PM, Harrison Owen wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dan
– Using the word, “game” as you do, I guess it sort of
works with OS, but I do confess a certain feeling of
cognitive dissonance, which I suspect may be shared by
some of my colleagues. In any event, it certainly would
not be a word I would use. But that doesn’t mean a great
deal. However, when you say, “Leaders choose to play OST.
Or not,” I do feel called upon to say something like... Oh
Yes? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Some
people refer to the “Game of Life,” but it is scarcely a
game you choose to play (or not). Not playing is called
suicide, I think, and while some people do make that
choice it is not a choice that most folks would considered
good, useful, or positive. It is more like canceling all
choices. Out of the Game, so to speak.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
feel rather the same way about OS, and for all the same
reasons. OS for me is not a process we choose to do or not
do – quite simply it is what we are -- Self organizing,
and OS is only an invitation to be ourselves fully and
purposefully. We can chose to be ourselves with
distinction, despair, or something in between -- but so
long as we remain on the planet in some viable form, we
got no choice. We are what we are, what we are. Put a
little differently, OS is not something new and different,
it is just a small name change for what has been around
for quite a while: life. I guess you can call it a game,
but somehow that seems to miss some of the nuances.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Harrison
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
Harold Shinsato<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:harold@shinsato.com">harold@shinsato.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://shinsato.com">http://shinsato.com</a><br>
twitter: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://twitter.com/hajush">@hajush</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Harold Shinsato<br>
<a href="mailto:harold@shinsato.com">harold@shinsato.com</a><br>
<a href="http://shinsato.com">http://shinsato.com</a><br>
twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/hajush">@hajush</a></div>
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