<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Harold, Michael, Harrison, and all, <div><br></div><div>I've been lurking on the sidelines of this conversation. Honestly, hoping a bit that it would go away. (Not sure about my motivations there.) However, the turn the thread has taken recently prompts me to speak up again. </div><div><br></div><div>I'd like to remind you about the Agile Open series of conferences (goes back to Europe in 2004 and still continuing) and the Agile Open Program supported by the Agile Alliance (since 2010) and before those the open space formats of Consultants' Camp (started by Jerry Weinberg decades ago), the Consultants' Retreats (Norm Kerth begun in 1997), and Retrospective Faciltators' Gatherings (Norm, Esther Derby, Linda Rising, and me, 2002), all still continuing and having touched many people in the Agile community over the years. What is now the Agile 20xx conferences have had an open space/open jam component since the beginning. As well as John Engle's, Harrison's, & Suzanne's involvement with a variety of Agile conferences. Coming to a Scrum Gathering in Boulder straight from having attended the US-OS on OS in San Antonio TX in 2005(?), I opened the first open space for Scrum (that I know of). Michael opened space at the XP/Agile Universe conference ten years ago and showed everyone there what self-organizing could look like in the moment. (I was there, thank you Michael.) </div><div><br></div><div>All of which has made fertile ground for Dan's advocacy to take hold in the Agile community. We all stand on the shoulders of giants. Dan may be the most vocal advocate at the moment (and I applaud his visibility), but I wouldn't say he's the most potent advocate. Agile and Open Space have a long, rich and entwined history together. </div><div><br></div><div>Some of us have been quietly applying Open Space principles in our Agile adoption work for many years. We haven't codified it or named it, but it's been a central part of what we do. Charlie Poole and others have opened space in organizations as a way of introducing, modeling, and applying Agile and self-organization. </div><div><br></div><div>The theoretical basis of Carse's _Finite and Infinite Games_ underlies much of the thinking in Human Systems Dynamics as well. The idea that the degree to which a system is open or closed, multi-dimensional or single dimensional, non-linear or linear gives us clues about the patterns that may fit the purpose or not, and whether we'd like to shift those patterns or not. Alistair Cockburn used Carse's model to think about competitive and cooperative games, and proposed the idea that software development would do well to think more in terms of cooperation among stakeholders. It's one of the reasons I was drawn into the Agile space. </div><div><br></div><div>Some in the Agile community have embraced this idea of games as metaphor, games/play as learning tool, but they often do not incorporate (are not aware of?) the deeper meanings from Carse and Cockburn and the complexity sciences. They do it because it's more fun. And that's okay too. </div><div><br></div><div>It may or may not be a metaphor, explanation or tool that works for the Open Space community. </div><div><br></div><div>Gratitude for your patience with my rambling, </div><div>Diana</div><div><br></div><div><br><div apple-content-edited="true">
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widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="font-style: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">**************<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">Diana Larsen</div><div style="font-style: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><a href="http://futureworksconsulting.com">http://futureworksconsulting.com</a></div><div style="font-style: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br></div><div style="font-style: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Envisioning a world where everyone at every level of the organization can say, "I love my work; this is the best job EVER!"</div><div style="font-style: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br></div><div style="font-style: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Read the books: </div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span><i>Agile Retrospectives: Making Good Teams Great </i></div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><i>Liftoff: Launching Agile Teams and Projects </i></div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><i>QuickStart Guide to Five Rules of Accelerated Learning <a href="https://leanpub.com/fiverules">https://leanpub.com/fiverules</a></i></div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="font-style: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">********************</div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Oct 9, 2013, at 1:08 PM, Harold Shinsato wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Michael,<br>
<br>
No fun to hear I'm failing - but it hasn't stopped me before. Try
and try again (even if it takes years).<br>
<br>
I'm not saying OST *is* a game. I'm not saying OST is anything.<br>
<br>
What I see is that there is value in the metaphor of OST as a
game.<br>
<br>
So Dan is already speaking about OST as a game to Agile circles
and making some good cheese with it. And maybe the Agile community
has a bit of a leg up on us here because Alistair Cockburn used
the game metaphor in his first book in the 1990's about this. And
Alistair is one of the signatories of the Agile Manifesto that
started the whole "Agile" (with capital letter) conversation. But
Alistair wasn't talking specifically about software as in an
obscure coding thing thing that will make everyone's eyes glaze
over. He was speaking about a different way to look at work and at
teams.<br>
<br>
So I've been in the Agile conversation for over a decade. And it's
not always been fun. Much of it has been butting up against minds
that were very shut, and it's still not an uncommon experience for
advocates to run into a wall. And maybe this might not seem
relevant here, but much of that "Agile" conversation has been
about people. People people people. It's even a frequent complaint
I hear for the techies, because a minority who show up at
conferences are only interested in the coding aspect. But they're
the minority. The first line of the <a href="http://agilemanifesto.org/">Agile Manifesto</a> -
"Individuals and interactions over processes and tools."<br>
<br>
Yes - I do live in that world of code. But I also live in this
world of Open Space, improving human dynamics in teams, OD type
stuff etc. And often times having a foot in both worlds causes
cognitive dissonance because not too many are comfortable in this
lonely between space. Finding language to bring together the
contasting perspectives can be difficult.<br>
<br>
But living in both worlds - I see so much in common. I see so much
common ground. I see so many ways that the Agile crowd can help
the OST/OD crowd, and most certainly visa versa.<br>
<br>
The thing is - the Agile universe is already embracing Open Space
in a huge way. And not always with the direct help and support and
understanding of the folks here. Which is not always a good thing.<br>
<br>
One last thing - the Agile community is not homogeneous. There are
many innovations that cause controversy and big huge disruptions.
I'm seeing some of Dan's work in this community as being
potentially hugely powerful and disrupting - and in a large way
due to his being the most potent advocate of Open Space in Agile
today. And this game perspective is part of how he got there.<br>
<br>
I'm not fully there and understanding his metaphor of OST as a
game - and it looks like I'll need to converse with him outside
this forum to fully get it. I guess I was hoping for a warmer
reception from the voices of authority and seniority on this list.
But at least, having attended WOSonOS in Florida and knowing some
of what is happening in the Open Space world because of being part
of the Open Space Institute/U.S. - I do know that many of us are
catching more of the agile mojo and that it will continue to
mature.<br>
<br>
Well, anyway - not sure I just helped you Michael but thanks for
giving me an excuse to rant. :-)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Harold<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/9/13 11:58 AM, Michael Herman wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CAD8j=QF_534FHO1e_GuXw+N4GZ6ORmtpSm_fCVDQBW6t+Tu3pA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">Not sure you actually accomlished "Against," <span></span>Harold. I
think I just read OST is life, a finite slice of Life.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And if the conversation happens in a room full of people who
think and talk about games, that's great to say OST is a game
cuz everyone in that room or community knows what that means.
Probably doesn't work as well on CNN or at an ODN mtg. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I guess it still a bit confusing to me if this conversation
is about how to talk OST in agile community or how to talk OST
in other/larger communities. Translation is always possible, but
the game lingo doesn't seem native to the folks I'm usually
talking with. Actually, finding some native understanding of
(and native language for) OS seems like half the game in many
instances. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>m</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
On Wednesday, October 9, 2013, Harold Shinsato wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Harrison,<br>
<br>
Ok, I'll take your word from previous posts that I won't
be in trouble if I risk going up against you again - or
maybe it's just a hope that this thread won't be shut down
due to misunderstandings.<br>
<br>
The statement "OST is a game" actually doesn't work for me
so much because it uncomfortably reduces all the ideas and
philosophy (and practice) of OST into a word that
unfortunately has for many negative connotations. But
perhaps I'll invite thinking about OST *as* a game
instead. Perhaps that can help prevent cognitive
dissonance and allow for this conversation to continue.<br>
<br>
My understanding of the word game as used by Daniel Mezick
and others comes from game theory - and could open up many
benefits.<br>
<br>
The briefest way I think to hope to keep this particular
door open for those in this community who might find the
word game unpleasant would be to suggest the book "Finite
and Infinite Games: A Vision of Life as Play and
Possibility" by James P. Carse. Mr. Carse actually is a
professor of history and literature of religion - and his
thinking in that book is very poetic and beautiful. And it
reminds me much of Open Space thinking - and I won't even
attempt to dive into his thesis any more than to look at
what I think sums up the thinking being the final sentence
in the book. "There is only one infinite game."<br>
<br>
The bigger game of Open Space is the game of life - the
unending story - the "one infinite game". And an OST
meeting or conference is a finite game which seems to open
up an experience of the infinite game in a beautiful way.
And yet, there's still value in seeing the finite game
aspects of OST in that context.<br>
<br>
Alas, perhaps this attempt will be futile. But I hold out
hope that others won't be discouraged from this
perspective on OST as a game and it's benefits.<br>
<br>
Harold<br>
<br>
On 10/7/13 1:25 PM, Harrison Owen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Dan
– Using the word, “game” as you do, I guess it sort
of works with OS, but I do confess a certain feeling
of cognitive dissonance, which I suspect may be
shared by some of my colleagues. In any event, it
certainly would not be a word I would use. But that
doesn’t mean a great deal. However, when you say,
“Leaders choose to play OST. Or not,” I do feel
called upon to say something like... Oh Yes? </span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Some
people refer to the “Game of Life,” but it is
scarcely a game you choose to play (or not). Not
playing is called suicide, I think, and while some
people do make that choice it is not a choice that
most folks would considered good, useful, or
positive. It is more like canceling all choices. Out
of the Game, so to speak.</span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
feel rather the same way about OS, and for all the
same reasons. OS for me is not a process we choose
to do or not do – quite simply it is what we are --
Self organizing, and OS is only an invitation to be
ourselves fully and purposefully. We can chose to be
ourselves with distinction, despair, or something in
between -- but so long as we remain on the planet
in some viable form, we got no choice. We are what
we are, what we are. Put a little differently, OS is
not something new and different, it is just a small
name change for what has been around for quite a
while: life. I guess you can call it a game, but
somehow that seems to miss some of the nuances.</span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Harrison
</span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div>-- <br>
Harold Shinsato<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:_e({},%20'cvml',%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20'harold@shinsato.com');" target="_blank">harold@shinsato.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://shinsato.com/" target="_blank">http://shinsato.com</a><br>
twitter: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://twitter.com/hajush" target="_blank">@hajush</a></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Michael Herman<br>
<a href="http://MichaelHerman.com">MichaelHerman.com</a><br>
(312) 280-7838
<p>Sent from my iPhone<br>
</p>
<br>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Harold Shinsato<br>
<a href="mailto:harold@shinsato.com">harold@shinsato.com</a><br>
<a href="http://shinsato.com/">http://shinsato.com</a><br>
twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/hajush">@hajush</a></div>
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