<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Let me make a correction on this:</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 255);">Later I have continued to learn in a larger community of practice organized around 6 professional Congresses, that I have proposed and help organize (from 1980 to 1990) - with equal time for discussion as the overall time for presenters (that, by the way, presented professional experiences). So it was a 50: 50 division…</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>To put this in the same format of the Conference Peggy mentioned (18+42+30), my time distribution should be: 15+15+15+45. That is, per 1,5h session, 3 speakers with 15 minutes each, followed by a "dialog session" of 45 minutes. </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>And this was in 1980! </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>Artur</span></div><blockquote type="cite" style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word;"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Helvetica;"><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Artur Silva <arturfsilva@yahoo.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> World wide Open Space
Technology email list <oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, August 9, 2013 11:48 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [OSList] Can any professional (engineer, architect, doctor) be *certified*? (was Re: Certification?)<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv6357090781"><div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Chris:</span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;"><span><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;"><br>
</span>You were very clear stating that an OST facilitator, or any other
facilitator, can't be certified, because "</span><span>We are people
whose skill is in responding well to myriad and changing contexts</span><span><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">". But you made an exception to </span><span>"</span></span><span>engineers,
architects or doctors"</span><span><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;"> that, if I understood well, can be certified (my highlights
below). And they are probably certified by Universities and/or by professional
associations, I presume...</span></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;"><span><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;"><br>
</span>But the point is that engineers, architects and doctors are also people</span><b> whose skill is in responding well to myriad and changing
contexts...</b><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;"></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;"><span><b><br>
</b>Haven't you ever find a doctor that
was not skilled enough to handle well a particular situation? I have find many
and in many different countries.</span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;"><span> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;"><span>My professional case is very unusual but taught me a lot.
There were no courses on computer software at the time I was a student. So I
have studied electrical engineering and then I have joined IBM as a Systems
Engineer trainee. And they managed to (trans)form me in a computer SE by a
practical way in 1,5 years, the last 9 months being the inclusion of me as a
trainee in a real project, with very good and experienced professionals. I have
learnt more in those 9 months, than in 5 years at the University (I am not
saying that the University was not important to give me some theoretical basis).</span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;"><span><br>
Later I have continued to learn in a larger community of practice organized
around 6 professional Congresses, that I have proposed and help organize (from
1980 to 1990) - with equal time for discussion as the overall time for
presenters (that by the way, presented professional experiences). So it was a
50: 50 division…</span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;"> </div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;">Still later, as a
Professor (a very unorthodox one, as I<span class="yiv6357090781apple-converted-space"> </span><span>think of myself as a "facilitator of
learning" and not as a "knowledge transmitter"), I have noticed
that some students learn a lot during the course and others not, but still
conclude the course. But employers tell me that, in both cases, new engineers
will normally spend at least one year being formed in the practicalities of the
profession (and the products they will use). </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;"><span> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;"><span>Also doctors have years of professional practice before
they become skilled enough to practice unsupervised. </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;"><span><br>
So, can and University, or a Professional association, certify a doctor,
an engineer, an architect? I doubt. </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;"><span> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;"><span>Who can certify that they are competent or not are the
customers (when they don't die in the process) – so, the crowd, or, as they
say, the “market”...</span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;"><span> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;">Regards</div><div style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;"> </div><div>
</div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;"><span>Artur </span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Chris Corrigan <chris@chriscorrigan.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> World wide Open Space Technology email list <oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, August 8, 2013 6:35 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [OSList] Certification?<br> </font> </div> <div class="yiv6357090781y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv6357090781"><div dir="ltr">Ohh I love this topic too, because as we go on and on it becomes clearer and clearer to me that Harrison's original idea (which
predated Open Source) was sheer genius. There is an expression in english: "Closing the barn doors after the horse has left." It's too late to certify people in Open Space Technology, and thank God!<div>
<br></div><div>You simply cannot certify people as a way to protect the brand and the reason is simple.</div><div><br></div><div>Certification is based on an industrial quality assurance model In other words, every product leaving the factory is guaranteed to work the way we say it is going to work. If it doesn't you can have your money back and we'll give you a new one that works. Every product can be tested before it leaves the factory to be sure it works reliably,</div>
<div><br></div><div>You simply cannot do that with facilitators. No amount of certification will guarantee that a client will get what they want every single time. And a facilitator taking a single training in Open Space or some other method will by definition NOT be perfect leaving the factory. You need to develop a practice, and even still there are contexts and situations that will challenge and surprise you. "Be Prepared to Be Surprised" is the only certification I can reliably give to anyone that has trained with me. <span style="font-weight:bold;">We are not engineers, architects or doctors</span>. <span style="font-weight:bold;">We are people whose skill is in responding well to myriad and changing contexts</span>.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The International Association of Facilitators went down this route. I have seen some horrible facilitation done by people who are certified by the IAF. So much so that I have no faith in that certification as standing for anything. It is a worthy idea but it simply cannot be implemented.</div></div><div class="yiv6357090781gmail_extra"><div class="yiv6357090781gmail_quote"><blockquote class="yiv6357090781gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><br></blockquote></div></div></div></div> </div> </div> </div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to <a ymailto="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to <a ymailto="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org"
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