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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi Lisa<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I know what you mean – even before the advent of online translation I remember a school friend of mine seeking a French translation of ‘I love you’ – and he came up with ‘Je zéro toi’ overlooking that he had taken the ‘love’ from a tennis meaning…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I do think that linguistically, Welsh is perhaps a more straightforward language than Spanish and less subject to colloquial transformations – due to the fact that Spanish is spoken by many more people. On this basis, I think it is more likely that Google translate would have come up with a reasonable pro-tem solution – given that Kirsty’s workshop is just 4 days away! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But naturally, if Kirsty can find a Welsh speaker who can grasp the vibrancy of the 5 guidelines etc in time – that would be far more preferable option. I would ask my Welsh speaking Mum but other factors mean that would not work at present.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But good luck Kirsty!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Atb<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org [mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Lisa Heft<br><b>Sent:</b> 10 July 2012 06:40<br><b>To:</b> World wide Open Space Technology email list<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [OSList] The five principles in Welsh?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Hi, Jon, Kirsty and others - <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>My experience with the online translation software - for example in Spanish - is that I have to go in there (if I am using something like Google Translate) to select / correct / substitute words that may in fact be choices for literal translations of words but are not correct or fluid for communication.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>For example I had a hilarious translation that translated something I was saying about the fact that I was going to fly into an airport (in an airplane) with the word 'fly' (the insect).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I have also have the experience of - even with someone who is fluent in a language - if they do not have the depth and breadth of an expansive vocabulary, they do not have the words to capture the nuance and meaning of everything they are translating. They translate something literally. Which does not translate something culturally or regionally.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>So when I have looked for translations - I have sought out someone who is very expressive and nuanced in their own home language - and we sit together and talk about what these principles and law phrases really truly mean, in the context of Open Space. And in the course of the conversation not only are they asking and offering things that we can explore and clarify together for the best choice of words - but they also become a passionate ambassador for the Open Space event itself. And together we learn so much about culture, context and communication.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I always say this - and in fact I have had this experience: If you cannot find a professional translator or a person with an extensive vocabulary in their home language (and ability to understand yours for that conversation) - find.... a poet. Because their job is to swim around in language and select words - not always the obvious words - for rich and complex meaning-making.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Friends - what are your other experiences, especially if different than mine?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Lisa<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Jul 9, 2012, at 5:35 AM, Jon Harvey wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi Kisty</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Google translate says:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Pwy bynnag ddaw yn y bobl iawn</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Beth bynnag fydd yn digwydd yw'r unig beth a allai gael</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Lle bynnag y mae'n digwydd yn y lle iawn</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Pryd bynnag y bydd yn dechrau yn yr adeg iawn</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Pan mae'n dros mae'n dros</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Mae cyfraith dwy droedfedd / gyfraith symudedd</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Byddwch yn barod i gael ei synnu</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Given that Welsh is a pretty formulaic language (unlike English) – there is a good chance this translation is reasonable.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hope this helps</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>atb</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Jon</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;border-width:initial;border-color:initial'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> </span></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a> [<a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org">mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Kirsty Lothian<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>05 July 2012 16:38<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>[OSList] The five principles in Welsh?</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Hello OS List,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I think this is actually my first post, although I have been reading for few years now! I am working with Improbable and Phelim McDermott on the Devoted and Disgruntled open space Roadshow which we are on this summer. On Saturday we will be doing our very first OS bilingual in Welsh and English. So... Does anyone know the principles and laws in Welsh?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>We are after the full complement:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Whoever comes are the right people<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Whatever happens is the only thing that could have<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Wherever it happens is the right place<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Whenever it starts is the right time<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>When it's over it's over<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>The law of two feet/ law of mobility<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Be prepared to be surprised<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Many thanks for any help you can offer,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Kirsty<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>