<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">I completely agree with you, Diane,
and especially when you say "</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">That is why, I now
start the training workshops with no personal introductions or “expectations or
hopes" exercises - otherwise many leave believing that intros etc. are
part of OS, and that, despite the numerous explanations and reminders we used
to give as trainers. People remember what they do, not what you say. A change
of mental model is easier when people can first experience OS in its real form,
without any distractions.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">”<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; "><br>
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br>
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">Indeed, I have been struggling for some time now about giving or not a
course on OST at the Portuguese Open Space Institute. And I have concluded
(again) that I will not give a formal course, because I don't believe in
"teaching/training OST". And I also believe that there is no need for
it. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">Just do the real thing about a matter of concern for the participants,
having proposed them to read the User's Guide before. Then give time for the
participants to open some space wherever they can. Do an OSonOS to reflect on
those experiences and regularly other ones. When the time comes, and when they
see the need for it, some subjects can be object of OSonOS's on specific
matters, like the "pre-work", to give only one example. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">This is not really training - it is an invitation for learning or nurturing
learning by collectively reflecting in the practice by the community
interested. Learning and perfecting OST is like learning how to ride a bicycle.
If one follows a lot of "class training on bicycles" but never tries
to mount one, one will never learn. Later, one will need to practice and
collectively reflect on one's and others' practices.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; "><br>
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br>
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">Comments?<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>Artur</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>-------------</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>- </span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; "> <div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; "> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Diane Gibeault <diane.gibeault@rogers.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
World wide Open Space Technology email list <oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, February 26, 2012 12:26 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [OSList] Teach Them to Fish / A Note to My Friends<br> </font> </div> <br>
<div id="yiv1651924618"><div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; "><div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; ">The
sequence you describe Harrison – <i>Fish Distributors, Fishing Teachers, and
then “Gone fish‘in” looking for other fish to fry</i> – captures well this rich
exchange. </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; ">How
fast can people start fishing, </span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; ">one of your earlier questions, remains an important one.</span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; ">Do
I truly believe that people can fish for themselves?</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "> is probably a good
place to start to address the question on how fast. </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; ">People
are not only ok, but are better off without the usual facilitation rituals of
personal intros and exercises to connect. Accepting that is one of the big challenges I
hear from some people who participate in OST training: trusting the OS process
and the group. </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; ">That
is why, I now start the training workshops with no personal introductions or
“expectations or hopes" exercises - otherwise many leave believing that
intros etc are part of OS, and that, despite the numerous explanations and
reminders we used to give as trainers. People remember what they do, not what
you say. A change of mental model is easier when people can first experience OS
in its real form, without any distractions.</span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; ">Participants
now receive the theme, the question and the givens, weeks in advance of the
training, so they are prepared, ready and willing. I basically explain in
the morning that we are jumping right away into our Open Space event so we can
have a clear unobstructed understanding of what OS is (no mix-up with training
things) and so that, with our OS experience as a level playing field, we can
later pursue our co-learing on OS.</span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; ">People
have often said often how relieved they were to not introduce themselves at the
OS opening, not having to measure up to the one-liner of experts or renowned
participants. Instead, when joining a group to discuss a topic of common
interest, they immediately felt safe to connect, eager for introductions and
did so with greater authenticity. The moment had real meaning for them. </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; ">Introductions
- even in smaller groups at the OS opening - are also a contradiction of OS
principles, first the circle: participation on an equal basis. </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; ">The
other principle: whoever comes, has some passion for the theme and is willing
to contribute. </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; ">Applying
those assumptions as a facilitator at the OS opening, in our very first gesture
with the group, is truly modeling our belief in those principles and more
importantly, our belief in people in general and in particular, those who chose to be there. </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; ">No
surprise that participants express relief at having found a way of working
where they feel trusted and respected, …without the traditional need to be
“massaged into it”.</span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; ">We
could say they not only know how to fish but have found the Zen of fishing.</span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; ">We
hear them talk about liberation, about being encouraged to breath freely. </span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "><i>How
fast can people start fishing? </i>You are right: <span>as fast as we get out of
the way and let them go to it.</span></span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "><i><br></i></span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; "><span>Diane</span></span></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(67, 67, 67); font-size: 11px; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: Verdana; "><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(139, 139, 139);"><span class="yiv1651924618Apple-style-span" style="color:rgb(96, 96, 96);"><br></span></div></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal" style=""><font class="yiv1651924618Apple-style-span" face="Verdana"><span class="yiv1651924618Apple-style-span" style="line-height:16px;"><span></span></span></font></div></div><div><br><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px;"> <div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; "> <div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times, serif; "> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Harrison Owen <hhowen@verizon.net><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> 'World wide Open Space Technology email list' <oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February 25, 2012 2:43:07 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [OSList] Teach Them to Fish / A Note to My Friends<br> </font> </div> <br><div id="yiv1651924618"><style><!--
#yiv1651924618
filtered {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
#yiv1651924618 filtered {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
#yiv1651924618 filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
#yiv1651924618 filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
#yiv1651924618 filtered {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
#yiv1651924618
p.yiv1651924618MsoNormal, #yiv1651924618 li.yiv1651924618MsoNormal, #yiv1651924618 div.yiv1651924618MsoNormal
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"serif";}
#yiv1651924618 a:link, #yiv1651924618 span.yiv1651924618MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}
#yiv1651924618 a:visited, #yiv1651924618 span.yiv1651924618MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}
#yiv1651924618 span.yiv1651924618apple-style-span
{}
#yiv1651924618 span.yiv1651924618apple-converted-space
{}
#yiv1651924618 span.yiv1651924618EmailStyle19
{font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;}
#yiv1651924618 .yiv1651924618MsoChpDefault
{font-size:10.0pt;}
#yiv1651924618 filtered {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
#yiv1651924618 div.yiv1651924618WordSection1
{}
--></style><div><div class="yiv1651924618WordSection1"><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; ">Bernd – No problem. Totally understand where you are coming from. At the end of the day if you empower someone, by whatever means or degree – you have, at least to some real extent, dis-empowered them. Or at the very least, further encumbered their situation. All that said there are indeed times when the ONLY thing you can do in the moment is hand out a fish. Starving people, still less dead ones – don’t learn very well… to fish or anything else. However, if your actions end with fish distribution, or almost as destructive, you do teach them to fish, but then hover over their shoulders to make sure they do it RIGHT, well that is a different kettle of fish (sorry about that </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Wingdings; ">J</span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; ">). Maybe there is a sequence here – Fish Distributors, Fishing Teachers, and then “Gone fish ‘in” – looking for other fish to fry. Or something.</span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; "> </span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; ">Harrison </span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; "> </span></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; ">Harrison Owen</span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; ">7808 River Falls Dr.</span></div><div
class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; ">Potomac, MD 20854</span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; ">USA</span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; "> </span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; ">189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)</span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; ">Camden, Maine 20854</span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; "> </span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:
sans-serif; ">Phone 301-365-2093</span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; ">(summer) 207-763-3261</span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; "> </span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; ">www.openspaceworld.com</span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; ">www.ho-image.com (Personal Website)</span></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Consolas; ">To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to:<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a></span></div></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-serif; "> </span></div><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: sans-serif; "> oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org [mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bernhard Weber<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 25, 2012 1:24 AM<br><b>To:</b> World wide Open Space Technology email list<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [OSList] Teach Them to Fish / A Note to My Friends</span></div></div></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"> </div><div
class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal">Harrison, </div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal">I have been living so long under conditions where the giver/beggar word pairing is not only a metaphor (Beira is the capital of Sofala province in Mozambique), so I had to deal with the problem also at a very practical level and on base of that I want to say:</div></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal">I fully agree </div></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal">and would like to complete something that I wrote in my last posting in answering what Artur has written. </div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal">Yes the giver-beggar relation creates conditions for helplessness and continued dependence and subservience. And yes, the dynamics is independent from
altruistic intentions.</div></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal">And I would complete, if you have a feeling for yourself and/or a spiritual perspective this means, such kind of giving is also bad for the giver, his/her mental costume and/or karma.</div></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal">But when I wrote in my last posting: sometimes you should also give the fish (meaning that nobody who is starved can learn) isn't that a contradiction?</div></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal">Yes it is, but</div></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal">a) contradictions as such are not necessarily bad. At least they are good for triggering thinking processes if not for more (like being a basic ingredient for self-organization, this also refers to the dissence-thread of this groups)</div></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal">b) it all depends on the real process.
If
temporary dependence is a price for helping out from helplessness so that further steps can follow, like learning, like disappearing of the giver, teacher, blurring/integrating of roles to teacherlearners and learnerteachers, I would say it is an acceptable price</div></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal">Bernd</div></div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"> </div><div><div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal">On Feb 24, 2012, at 3:01 AM, Harrison Owen wrote:</div></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><br><br></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"><span class="yiv1651924618apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: sans-serif; ">The secondary point may be less than obvious. When you are simply handed a fish the conditions for learned helplessness and continued dependence, to say nothing of subservience are created. Even with the best, most altruistic
intentions in the world, a fish handout has its problems.</span></span><span class="yiv1651924618apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: sans-serif; "> </span></span></div></div><div class="yiv1651924618MsoNormal"> </div></div></div></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><br><br><br> </div> </div>
</blockquote></div> </div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to <a ymailto="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to <a ymailto="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" target="_blank">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><br><br><br> </div> </div> </div></body></html>