<html><head><base href="x-msg://16/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Yes Harrison,<div><br></div><div>I think this is one of the central points, To see all interventions/events, especially OS events as an integrated part of an ongoing complex (overall self-organized) process, a stream with a sequence, ...</div><div>a sequence, where we find an adequate point of going into the stream, becoming sometimes even a strong interventionist (or better not not, if not necessary according to the principle of minimal invtervention) but finally going fishing, going for a drink, a nap, becoming "irrelevant" again. As I see it, and as you pointed out clearly that we can not escape the empowerment/dis-impowerment contradiction (in the sense of 'aporim' or 'aporia' (you and others, I also sometimes use the Yin&Yang wording, but I like the old greek term because it became very rich during a career from Plato to Hegel etc but was somehow forgotten in our own culture)</div><div><br></div><div>The recent "enrichment" of the OST set of principles by the 5th one, makes clear, that such events are always integrated in an ongoing living (historic) process I think.</div><div><br></div><div>Bernd<br><div><div>On Feb 26, 2012, at 1:13 AM, Harrison Owen wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Bernd – No problem. Totally understand where you are coming from. At the end of the day if you empower someone, by whatever means or degree – you have, at least to some real extent, dis-empowered them. Or at the very least, further encumbered their situation. All that said there are indeed times when the ONLY thing you can do in the moment is hand out a fish. Starving people, still less dead ones – don’t learn very well… to fish or anything else. However, if your actions end with fish distribution, or almost as destructive, you do teach them to fish, but then hover over their shoulders to make sure they do it RIGHT, well that is a different kettle of fish (sorry about that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">J</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">). Maybe there is a sequence here – Fish Distributors, Fishing Teachers, and then “Gone fish ‘in” – looking for other fish to fry. Or something.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Harrison<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Harrison Owen<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">7808 River Falls Dr.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Potomac, MD 20854<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">USA<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Camden, Maine 20854<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Phone 301-365-2093<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">(summer) 207-763-3261<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a href="http://www.openspaceworld.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">www.openspaceworld.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a href="http://www.ho-image.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">www.ho-image.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(Personal Website)<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to:<a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Bernhard Weber<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, February 25, 2012 1:24 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>World wide Open Space Technology email list<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [OSList] Teach Them to Fish / A Note to My Friends<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Harrison, <o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I have been living so long under conditions where the giver/beggar word pairing is not only a metaphor (Beira is the capital of Sofala province in Mozambique), so I had to deal with the problem also at a very practical level and on base of that I want to say:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I fully agree <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">and would like to complete something that I wrote in my last posting in answering what Artur has written. <o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Yes the giver-beggar relation creates conditions for helplessness and continued dependence and subservience. And yes, the dynamics is independent from altruistic intentions.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">And I would complete, if you have a feeling for yourself and/or a spiritual perspective this means, such kind of giving is also bad for the giver, his/her mental costume and/or karma.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">But when I wrote in my last posting: sometimes you should also give the fish (meaning that nobody who is starved can learn) isn't that a contradiction?<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Yes it is, but<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">a) contradictions as such are not necessarily bad. At least they are good for triggering thinking processes if not for more (like being a basic ingredient for self-organization, this also refers to the dissence-thread of this groups)<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">b) it all depends on the real process. If temporary dependence is a price for helping out from helplessness so that further steps can follow, like learning, like disappearing of the giver, teacher, blurring/integrating of roles to teacherlearners and learnerteachers, I would say it is an acceptable price<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Bernd<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Feb 24, 2012, at 3:01 AM, Harrison Owen wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">The secondary point may be less than obvious. When you are simply handed a fish the conditions for learned helplessness and continued dependence, to say nothing of subservience are created. Even with the best, most altruistic intentions in the world, a fish handout has its problems.</span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "> </span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>