<html><head><base href="x-msg://50/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Thanks, Larry! This is a great group to have these sorts of conversations with because it's wonderfully smart people who really get that the theory applies immediately to our real life practice, and that real life practice then informs the further development of the theory. If we were just a bunch of people throwing around ideas totally abstracted from our work in the world, I don't think I would love being on the list near as much as I do.<div><br></div><div>John</div><div><br><div><div>On Sep 21, 2011, at 1:02 PM, Larry Peterson wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I’ve been lurking for a while and I also want to thank John for reminding us all of the useful definitions of open systems, self-organization and the nature of reality. Yes they are social constructions that inquiry has developed but they make sense to me.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Larry<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Toronto, Ontario, Canada<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a href="mailto:larry@spiritedorg.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="color: blue; ">larry@spiritedorg.com</span></a> 416.653.4829<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.spiritedorg.com/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="color: blue; ">http://www.spiritedorg.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>David Osborne<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>September-20-11 7:23 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>World wide Open Space Technology email list<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [OSList] Designing an OS way<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I meant to type whether they are far from or close to equilibrium !!!<br><br>Sent from my iPad<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>On Sep 20, 2011, at 6:55 PM, David Osborne <<a href="mailto:dosborne@change-fusion.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">dosborne@change-fusion.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I think Open Space will work wether the share Oscar from equilibrium or close to equilibrium as I suspect is born out by the thousands of successful examples. It seems to me the critical ingredients in boteh these situations are; is there enough diversity present and is there enough passion/caring/ energy present in the space.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">David<br><br>Sent from my iPad<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>On Sep 19, 2011, at 1:45 PM, John Watkins <<a href="mailto:johnw536@mac.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">johnw536@mac.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Great questions, Michael!<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I think when I am feeling optimistic (most of the time) I see OST as creating one of those "far from equilibrium states" that Prigogine and Stengers talk about as enabling new orders to emerge; however, in less sanguine times, I could also imagine OST as just a "subsystem fluctuation" enabling larger system stability. But I think that most of our larger systems these days are exhibiting something like either disequilibrium or bifurcation points, so maybe OST is able to restructure the system architecture so fundamentally that a new order could emerge. Weick talks about that restructuring of the system architecture in order to change the "flows" of energy in the system. I think Bateson referred to one kind of larger system disequilibrium as an "uptight system," where at least one of the "variables" is "pinned" at its upper or lower limits of its range of flexibility, resulting in that rigidity rippling through the whole system. Rigid systems change more easily, but not usually in a very pretty way: chaotic bursts, turbulence, tumbling into chaos, new orders emerging spontaneously...<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">John<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Sep 19, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Michael Herman wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">yes, thanks, john. and... where does os practice drop into either of these? in bateson terms, it seems open space meetings would be an alternative state that organizations are unconsciously working to prevent? how does something like working in an open space way become part of the equilbrium state that is then automatically preserved by continually returning from anything that's alternative to that way of being in organization? in lemke terms, there seems a place for operating in open space, but will it always require what sounds like a crisis, choice-point to be helpful? how does working in an open space way become normal in systems that are storied in this way? m<br><br><br clear="all"> <br>--<br><br>Michael Herman<br>Michael Herman Associates<br>312-280-7838 (mobile)<br><br><a href="http://MichaelHerman.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://MichaelHerman.com</a><br><a href="http://ManorNeighbors.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://ManorNeighbors.com</a><br><a href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a><br><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 12:06 PM, John Watkins <<a href="mailto:johnw536@mac.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">johnw536@mac.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Michael,</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">I think Gregory Bateson addressed the question of equilibrium most eloquently a long time ago in his great book, Steps to an Ecology of Mind! And I've seen some great analysis of it in Jay Lemke's book, Textual Politics. Let's see if I can find the relevant quotes...</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Bateson: Systems “…maintain a dynamic equilibrium or steady state… [through] maximiz[ing] the chances against the maximization of any single simple variable” (124). “The steady state is maintained by continual nonprogressive change” (125). What Bateson noticed was that allowable levels of fluctuations in some subset of a larger system were used to create relative stability in the larger system, but that those fluctuations never led to fundamental shifts in the architecture of the system, as they continually shifted out of and then returned to a kind of dynamic equilibrium. It is a “corrective action… brought about by [the awareness of] difference” (Bateson, 1972:381). A social system “…does not elect the steady state; it prevents itself from staying in any alternative state” (381). Or, “[T]he constancy and survival of some larger system is maintained by changes in the constituent subsystem” (Bateson, 1972:339). </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Lemke calls that a “meta-stable non-equilibrium” (Lemke, 1995:11). He goes on to argue that as social systems develop, they become more ordered and differentiated, increasingly complex, and as such, demonstrate irreversibility. At some point, in various layers of their hierarchy (hierarchy in systems theory is not the same as hierarchy of authority or knowledge, e.g., bureaucracy; it is a concept of scale, in scope, time, or space), open, complex systems begin to demonstrate non-symmetry, or the possibility of bifurcation (branching, “choice” points), due to the amplified, interacting oscillations of various sub-systems. Bifurcation in larger systems can enable larger out-of-equilibrium fluctuations in, or unpredictable interactions between, sub-systems to result in evolutionary, or adaptive, change in the larger system...</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Does this help?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); ">John</span><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Sep 19, 2011, at 9:36 AM, Michael Herman wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">i want to echo florian's appreciation for your story, john, thank you. and i have a question about "equilibrium." <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>in financial markets, gene fama won a nobel prize for his theory of "efficient" markets, suggesting that markets always reflected all current information, immediately returning to "equilbrium" after every news release, so that above-normal returns were not possible. many now question or dismiss this.<br><br>so, in a world that is always moving, what does the theory you described so nicely have to say about equilibrium? does it then lead into questions about locality and "self" ...the department might be in equilibrium but the company is falling apart, or vice versa... so the boundaries of the "self" that is being invited to organize or re-organize really matter.<br><br>mostly i'm just wondering if you can say more to map the open systems, thermodynamics, and esp equilibrium story to what we have all seen happening in organizations and open spaces. is "equilibrium" the same as "normal?"<br><br>m<br><br><br clear="all"> <br>--<br><br>Michael Herman<br>Michael Herman Associates<br><a href="tel:312-280-7838" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">312-280-7838</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(mobile)<br><br><a href="http://MichaelHerman.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://MichaelHerman.com</a><br><a href="http://ManorNeighbors.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://ManorNeighbors.com</a><br><a href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><o:p></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><o:p></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div>_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>