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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>John – correct on all counts. But I think it fair to say that even in thermodynamics, the notion of a “closed system” has always been a theoretical construct. The truth of the matter is that something is always sneaking in and out. The hope is that whatever the “sneaker” may be it will have an effect below the level of experimental significance. In other words, no matter what it does, it will not constitute and “uncontrolled variable.” Of course, if it does, then it is back to the drawing boards. In a laboratory environment things work out pretty well. However, when the notion of a closed system is applied to human systems (organizations and such) – as it has been for years in the Halls of Management Science – we get into serious difficulties. Organizations, as indeed all life forms, are inherently connected to their environment. And when that connection breaks, typically they are dead. With the environmental connection comes the environmental challenge – to which the life form will either adapt or perish. It is called evolution. Those that adapt well will thrive, and more often than not the adaptation comes in the form of “new and higher orders of complexity” – self organization. That has been the observation which has subsequently become a critical element of the Theory (of self-organizations). Is this what happens in OST? I think so, but I doubt that anybody has or could prove it one way or another. That said, self organization is the only theoretical construct I know which “explains” what is the common experience in every Open Space. Could there be other theoretical constructs? Of course – but I don’t have a clue what they are – and I would be delighted to know about them.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Harrison</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Harrison Owen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>7808 River Falls Dr.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Potomac, MD 20854<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>USA<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Camden, Maine 20854<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Phone 301-365-2093<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>(summer) 207-763-3261<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>www.openspaceworld.com<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>www.ho-image.com (Personal Website)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to:<a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org"><span style='color:blue'>http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org [mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Watkins<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 19, 2011 11:17 AM<br><b>To:</b> World wide Open Space Technology email list<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [OSList] Designing an OS way<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Florian,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>HOWEVER... (and this may be how OST works... Harrison?) Prigogine and Stengers also say that... "in open systems, in far from equilibrium states, new orders emerge spontaneously."<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>John<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sep 19, 2011, at 1:20 AM, fischer florian wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>John, that´s wonderful. Finally a clear definition. That works.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thank you a lot.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Florian<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Florian Fischer<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><a href="mailto:ff@begleitung-im-wandel.com">ff@begleitung-im-wandel.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><a href="http://www.begleitung-im-wandel.com/">www.begleitung-im-wandel.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Münchener Straße 6<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>10779 Berlin<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Fon (030) 2116752<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Am 19.09.2011 um 06:25 schrieb John Watkins:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Artur,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The term "open systems" comes from thermodynamics, especially from Prigogine and Stengers, who also refer to them as "dissipative" systems. It does not mean open to change; it means open in the sense of importing "energy" from outside itself and excreting "energy" back into the surrounding system. Such systems are most often self-organizing and self-recreating (autopoiesis). They "sort" energy into that which will help them recreate themselves and that which will not, and they dissipate the rest, creating, paradoxically, internally order and externally more entropy. Bureaucracies are actually great examples of open systems in this regard.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>John<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sep 18, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Artur Silva wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div id=yiv1689980052><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>I continue to have a disagreement with you on this point, Harrison.</span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'> </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>I agree that "</span><span style='color:black'>all systems are self organizing -- it is the preexisting condition here on planet earth</span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>"</span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'> </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>But I do not conclude that they are all open ! </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'> </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>Let's think of physical phenomena first - it is self organization that creates diamonds (see, for instance <a href="http://www.allaboutgemstones.com/diamond_chemistry_formation.html">http://www.allaboutgemstones.com/diamond_chemistry_formation.html</a>). </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>But after they are created,</span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> <b><span style='background:white'>they are not open anymore</span></b> <span style='background:white'>- they are quit closed, especially if we compare them with other forms of carbon (like graphite - see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon</a>), not to talk when carbon is combined with oxygen, to form a gas, like in CO2.</span></span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'> </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>The same is true, IMHO, about organizations. Some are more open, but many are really closed, like Government burocraties or large companies. And some are more closed than others (let's take as an example IBM or Microsoft when compared with Google or Dell). </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'> </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>This has other consequences, namely in what concerns the organizations' capacity to learn and adapt to the changing environment.</span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'> </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>I don't believe that we can continue to say that we (or the sponsor) "<b>opens the space</b>", if it was always already open ! </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'> </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>Indeed, what we do in OST is, IMO, to create a <b>pattern</b> that has been previously designed - what, many moons ago, I have called the "foundations of OST" are indeed a pattern - that is different from the patterns of the World Cafe and, even more different, from the pattern of "Future Search".</span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'> </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>I thing that your remarks that we can't "design for self organization" applies to the "conventional engineering way of thinking about design": first we design and then we implement and control. </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'> </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>But if we think about Chris Alexander's "Patterns" to create a "Timeless Way of Building", from regions, to cities, to neighborhoods, to buildings (see for instance <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Alexander">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Alexander</a>) we may create an analogue for organizations and try to imagine <b>what are the patterns that allow for an organization or community to become more "open" and then more able to learn</b>. </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'> </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>This is, I believe, what many of us are doing in many different domains and situations. </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'> </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>Regards</span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'> </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'>Artur</span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yiv1689980052yui_3_2_0_22_131616920369854"><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> Harrison Owen <<a href="mailto:hhowen@verizon.net">hhowen@verizon.net</a>><br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:76066.515@compuserve.com">76066.515@compuserve.com</a>; 'World wide Open Space Technology email list' <<a href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a>><br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 16, 2011 1:44 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [OSList] Designing an OS way<br></span><span style='color:black'><br>Doug -- You may be working too hard. If you start with the idea (I would say<br>fact) that the folks are already "in" open space, they are just not doing it<br>as well or intentionally as they might. After all, all systems are self<br>organizing -- it is the preexisting condition here on planet earth :-) Also,<br>you have a group of consenting adults (the so called "students.") who<br>probably have some idea of how they might like to spend time together in a<br>useful and supportive fashion. If it were me, I would convene a 1 day Open<br>Space for anybody who cared (presumably students and faculty) with the<br>theme, "Issues and opportunities for supporting each other as we build our<br>businesses." It might turn out, for example, that they would rather have a<br>weekend together once a quarter. Or something totally different.<br><br>At the very least you would avoid the awful oxymoron of "organizing a self<br>organizing system." As for "The Principles, etc" no need to organize a<br>thing. You would already "be there." And best of all you would be treating<br>the "students" like adult human beings which I would consider to be a real<br>plus. <br><br>Harrison <br><br><br><br>Harrison Owen<br>7808 River Falls Dr.<br>Potomac, MD 20854<br>USA<br><br>189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)<br>Camden, Maine 20854<br><br>Phone 301-365-2093<br>(summer) 207-763-3261<br><br><a href="http://www.openspaceworld.com/">www.openspaceworld.com</a><br><a href="http://www.ho-image.com/">www.ho-image.com</a> (Personal Website)<br>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST<br>Go to:<a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" target="_blank">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>[mailto:<a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>] On Behalf Of douglas germann<br>Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 8:19 PM<br>To: oslist<br>Subject: [OSList] Designing an OS way<br><br>Friends--<br><br>An opportunity has been dropped in my lap, and I need your help to<br>noodle it through, please:<br><br>A local college created a program for beginning entrepreneurs. They now<br>have a dozen graduates of this continuing education program, and they<br>are doing follow-on sessions: once a month, from 9 to 10 am, local<br>experts present and consult with them. For those who pay the fee for<br>this continuing portion, this session is mandatory.<br><br>Now they want to do something at these monthly meetings which will<br>encourage them to consult and conspire with one another on the<br>challenges they are facing as they start their businesses. This is<br>voluntary.<br><br>The sessions would run from 10:30 am to 1:00 pm. Many people may have to<br>get back to work by 1:00 so may leave early.<br><br>They had a 3-hour OS session half way through their program before they<br>graduated, so most of them have had some experience with OS.<br><br>My sense of what they need is to be sounding boards for each other, to<br>engage one another in deep and meaningful conversation, to have some<br>bonding or cohesiveness time.<br><br>I would like to design some way that uses OS principles that becomes<br>their way of being together. They would like me to help some of them<br>learn how to do OST, and that might be part of it.<br><br>How would you design an OS way of life for these women for their once a<br>month meeting?<br><br>Thanks!<br><br> :- Doug.<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to <a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to <a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" target="_blank">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to <a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to <a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" target="_blank">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to <a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to <a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to <a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to <a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to <a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to <a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>