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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It is very unlikely that google would start to charge for these kind of service. Its part of their basic business model. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Possibly riseup.net could host, they would work by donation. They have been around for ten years. Have worked out most kinks. Another solution for the archives would be to create a database of them that is online. Only cost would be the initial setup, and a much lower annual cost just for a web site. No software company in perpetuity and listserve seems expensive;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>bill<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Koos de Heer<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 29, 2010 1:30 AM<br><b>To:</b> OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [OSLIST] the future of the oslist -- news and a proposal<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Michael, Chris and others,<br><br>Thanks Michael for doing all this research and drafting such a careful proposal. One slight worry I have is that any service that is for free at the moment, like Google Groups, may not stay for free in the future. I have set up groups on other services, that were free in the beginning but then at a later stage took away the best features from the free account to put them into a paid service. Only the very basic service remained free. I hope Google groups (or any free service that we may decide to join) is not going to pull a trick like that on us.<br><br>And of course I am willing to help.<br><br>From a rainy and windy Utrecht,<br><br>Koos<br><br><br>At 20:34 21-8-2010, Chris Kloth wrote:<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Michael, et al.<br><br>I'm coming in late, but have read all the posts to date.<br><br>Like others I want to thank you for your work on this particular matter, as well as your list work on behalf of all of us over the years.<br><br>I support the principles that are driving the decisions.<br><br>I lack the technical and marketplace knowledge to assess hosting and software options - but trust those of you engaging in that conversation.<br><br>It appears that there have been financial pledges sufficient to support the one time costs, but it is not clear to me how the ongoing costs might be managed. In any case, once an approach to funding has been arrived at I am willing to (a) help share the load of the one time costs in some way, and/or (b) put in my fair share of the ongoing costs.<br><br>Shalom,<br><br>Chris Kloth<br><br>Michael Herman wrote: <br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>hello all, a bit of very important news and a proposal for the future of the oslist.<br><br>the oslist -- in it's current form -- will cease to exist within the next year. i have been in contact with our boise state hosts and with the makers of the software that drives our list and archives. i've developed a bit of a work-around plan (working around paying the software company or anyone else large sums of money annually to run the future of the list). the softward company has confirmed for me that this (rather non-standard use of their software) is indeed technically feasible. another nice thing about it is that it makes the oslist structure look even more like what we do in open space meetings. <br><br>the oslist at boise state is done as of june 30th 2011, they are cancelling their license and migrating all university groups to googlegroups. on that date, oslist will disappear, unless we do something to move it. <br><br>IF we can find another organization to host us as bsu has, then we can (pay someone to) migrate our archive and user list and go on our merry way, subject again to the whims of their IT department.<br><br>IF, instead, we choose to fund our own implementation of the listserv (brand name) software, we can migrate our archives and continue our conversation.<br><br>ALTERNATIVELY, or more creatively... we can contract with l-soft directly to set-up and maintain our archive, control that for ourselves going forward, AND set it up in a way that would add to the archive going forward any postings from any other email list, like germany, europe, australia, uk, etc. what's more, this turns out to be the cheapest option, because we only need to pay for listserv software for the archiving function, rather than for a full-blown list that will deliver to 700 people at a cost of almost $2 for EVERY message sent to the list (this assumes we would pay for the service rather than license and run this for ourselves. harrison is fond of saying that we have done all this without a marketing department. why add an IT department now?) this is my suggestion.<br><br>and this is what i'm proposing (offering) to do now:<br><br>1. migrate all of our members to a new oslist at googlegroups (yes, googlegroups. people who pay attention to such things seem to prefer the functionality there and since our list is public anyway, there are no issues with privacy and control of content. but we will also archive in two other places, a gmail account AND a listserv system that will keep adding all new posts to the old listserv archive.)<br><br>2. migrate the archive (12 years, i think, and on our way to 29,000 messages) to a new list that will have only one member account. <br><br>3. make that one member account (<a href="mailto:oslist@gmail.com">oslist@gmail.com</a>, for instance) a member of the new <a href="mailto:oslist@googlegroups.com">oslist@googlegroups.com</a> AND any other lists around the world. THEN set that member account to forward everything it receives to the migrated archive. so other lists become like breakouts and the oslist archive a global community record wall of what's happening.<br><br>it this way, we achieve: <br><br>1. a new, free, and durable oslist at googlegroups, with all the bells and whistles there<br>2. the survival of the 29,000-message archive in publicly-searchable perpetuity, hosted by l-soft (makers of listserv software)<br>3. the addition of all new oslist and other list postings to the central archive<br><br>what does it cost?<br><br>1. continuing the oslist conversation in a new googlegroups oslist account costs nothing.<br>2. forwarding to the archive of all os community list mail from any list, costs nothing<br>3. migration of the oslist archive and setup of new archive list function costs $500<br>4. the cost of maintaining the archive would be $500 per year<br><br>i'd expect that $500 is fundable through donations and could easily be handled in the normal course of business and budgeting of the osi-usa. i assume it's better to have a legal entity with a standing bank account take responsibility for it, rather than an individual or loose group of colleagues. but i'll leave it to osi-usa or another group to say they'll take this on.<br><br>i *think* that any other solution to this results in one or more of the following... loss of the archives, costs that run to $3000 or $4000 annually (and are totally variable based on list size), reliance on volunteer community members to be our global IT department, additional cost of paying community members to admin the system, reliance on the goodwill of some other organization (which might be generous initially but could pull the plug with less warning than we've been given now), no ability to archive many lists in our one online record. <br><br>i will check with boise state to confirm their support for our migration. i'm told by l-soft that migrating the archive to a new location/list is pretty simple stuff. <br><br>i'm willing to implement this, but not fund it. i'd like at least four others to sign on as stewards of the shift. more would be fine. and i hope osi-usa will be the official steward for donations/funding matters.<br><br>i don't have time right now to discuss this with 700 subscribers. i'm just one guy, one list member. this is just my personal recommendation and proposal. BUT... if there are concerns about any of this, i'm glad to try to keep up with clarifying questions. <br><br>if you think this is a good way to proceed, please say so. if you have something to contribute to the process (time, attention, money, etc) please say so. if you have concerns, let's hear them, too -- BUT if you think we shouldn't do something in this proposal, then bring your own suggestions and proposals for what we should do instead, making sure that the solution as modified (or replaced) is still complete (technically, financially, etc.). <br><br>since we don't have anything to discuss about IF we should move or really even WHEN we should move, the only question is HOW to preserve the archive and WHERE to continue the main conversation. <br><br>ideally, this would all happen when things quiet down a bit at the end of the year, mid- to late-december. that's when i would be most able to support these things. anyone else could do it sooner or later, but i do think that distinguishing our two tasks, maintaining the archive AND continuing the conversation, is a valuable way to think about this now.<br><br>what can you contribute to this (new) beginning?<br><br>m<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <br>--<br><br>Michael Herman<br>Michael Herman Associates<br><br><a href="http://MichaelHerman.com">http://MichaelHerman.com</a><br><a href="http://ronanparktrail.com/">http://RonanParkTrail.com</a><br><a href="http://ManorNeighbors.com">http://ManorNeighbors.com</a><br><a href="http://chicagoconservationcorps.org/">http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org</a><br><a href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a><br><br>312-280-7838 (mobile)<br><br><br>* * ========================================================== <a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a> ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of <a href="mailto:oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu:">oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu:</a> <a href="http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html">http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html</a> To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: <a href="http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist">http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>ÐÏࡱá<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal>* * ========================================================== <a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a> ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of <a href="mailto:oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu">oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu</a>: <a href="http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html">http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html</a> To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: <a href="http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist">http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>* * ========================================================== <a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a> ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of <a href="mailto:oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu">oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu</a>: <a href="http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html">http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html</a> To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: <a href="http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist">http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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