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Hi Michael, I saw a few of those web posts about the conversion
process from LSoft to MailMan. I think I could help with that. It's
not clear how well it would work - sometimes you can't tell until
you do it - but I think it would be worth a few hours
experimentation to see if it's a feasible route before we commit to
$500 a year expense with LSoft. There's just a nice ring to the Open
Space community using Open Source software :-)<br>
<br>
I'm hoping that once we get the MailMan software set up - it should
be pretty self-maintaining - but hopefully we can get a small team
of volunteers to do the minor maintenance required. <br>
<br>
From what I can see on the Dreamhost support pages, it doesn't look
too bad. But it'd be nice if we could get more than one person with
admin rights/responsibility. I'm happy to help - as long as we can
tell it would be feasible. If not - LSoft might be still be the
better choice - but it seems worth the experimentation. Perhaps you
and I can talk on the phone soon about this?<br>
<br>
As I was writing this, the UPS man came with my copy of Peggy's
"Engaging Emergence" (I'm so excited)! It seems an interesting
synchronicity that the "disruption" of the current ListServe
implementation for OSList going down is actually a great opportunity
for emergence!<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Harold<br>
<br>
On 8/20/10 12:05 AM, Michael Herman wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTik=v3-wvocxrPzFg89Uhyn6FLXPfmhy89c=JJsx@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">harold -- here's more. i you suggested the mailman
route i went looking some more. i found this... <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blog.anthonyrthompson.com/listserv-to-mailman/">http://blog.anthonyrthompson.com/listserv-to-mailman/</a>
and it seems to be the blueprint for converting the archives we
have into a format that the mailman software would require. so we
could blow off l-soft altogether. <br>
<br>
i still like the idea of migrating/converting/maintaining the
publicly searchable archive as first task and then creating a new
list alongside of other lists that exist, and send messages from
all of them to the one searchable archive. <br>
<br>
so this article i've found seems to prove that it's quite possible
to make the shift you're suggesting. then the question becomes...
who can do it and then, who can maintain the thing, who can handle
ongoing support, admin, updating and all that... and can that be
done by anyone for the long term, and can that possibly be done
for less than $500 year. <br>
<br>
i've sent a message to the author of this conversion guide i've
linked to above and asked what conversion might cost, cuz i can
understand in theory what he's talking about, but i can't possibly
implement the actual steps he's detailed. <br>
<br>
m<br>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Michael Herman<br>
Michael Herman Associates<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://MichaelHerman.com">http://MichaelHerman.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://RonanParkTrail.com">http://RonanParkTrail.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://ManorNeighbors.com">http://ManorNeighbors.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org">http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a><br>
<br>
312-280-7838 (mobile)<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:12 AM, Michael
Herman <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:michael@michaelherman.com">michael@michaelherman.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
harold -- the $500 is not really a cost we can get around. if
we want to keep our 29000 messages. we need to run "listserv"
(l-soft's brand name email discussion list software) in order
to keep our archives publicly available and searchable. that
cost includes hosting... but mostly it's for the use of the
software. then the question of where the conversation
continues is wide open. googlegroups is free and easy, so
seemed a good first choice. but we can go anywhere with
that. it's the archives that are not very easily written into
another platform and the archives that actually require some
spending (or dependence on the goodwill of some other
organization already running the l-soft listserv software).<br>
<br>
does this make sense?
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
m<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Michael Herman<br>
Michael Herman Associates<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://MichaelHerman.com"
target="_blank">http://MichaelHerman.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://RonanParkTrail.com"
target="_blank">http://RonanParkTrail.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://ManorNeighbors.com"
target="_blank">http://ManorNeighbors.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org" target="_blank">http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org"
target="_blank">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a><br>
<br>
312-280-7838 (mobile)<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:44 PM,
Harold Shinsato <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:harold@shinsato.com" target="_blank">harold@shinsato.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt
0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> Hi Michael,<br>
<br>
I can see you've put a lot of work into this
already. I know that a lot of times you get what you
pay for - but it's not always a linear equation.<br>
<br>
There is a web hosting company - <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://dreamhost.com"
target="_blank">dreamhost.com</a> - that offers
full service hosting free to US 501(c)(3) companies.
They also offer listserve type features -
specifically the open source GNU "Mailman" software.<br>
<br>
This would also provide the feature of full
portability (as long as we could install the GNU
mailman software on our webhosting company.) And
since many of these low cost web hosting companies
are offering unlimited storage at their $100 a year
plans - it would be quite feasible to also port the
full message archive. And in the case of Dream host,
it should be possible for $0 a year.<br>
<br>
Googlegroups is a viable free option, and maybe we
can get the listserve style feature at a lower cost
per year.<br>
<br>
Harold
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
On 8/19/10 7:32 PM, Michael Herman wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">justin -- glad to talk
through it with you. ring anytime. and the
$500 annually would go to l-soft (makers of
"listserv" which powers the list. the set-up
fee would be for initiating the new list and
migrating all users and archives. the annual
$500 covers dedicated hosting, list
maintenance/upgrades, sort of stuff. <br>
<br>
raffi -- one of the things i like about this
particular solution is that we anchor one big
archive with the 29000 messages we have, but
we continue the conversation elsewhere, on a
list called 'oslist' but also on any other
regional lists, with the content from all of
them hitting the central searchable archive.
this means that where we have the conversation
no longer matters. start a googlegroup. if
we hate that then we can move someplace else,
but wherever we go, we just keep forwarding a
copy of everything to the archive. that way
we're tied only to listserv. until we write
our own listware, we're always going to be
tied to somebody's product. so sticking with
the ones that brought us this far would seem
the best option. i don't see any reason to
spend anything to convert our listserv (brand
name) archive into google or yahoo or any
other list platform, and just depend on a
different company/platform. but this way, we
only depend on l-soft for the archiving. the
conversations can happen anywhere, starting
and stopping in whatever ways they will.<br>
<br>
thanks to everyone else who's said so far that
they'd like to help with the funding end.<br>
<br>
m<br clear="all">
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Michael Herman<br>
Michael Herman Associates<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://MichaelHerman.com"
target="_blank">http://MichaelHerman.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://RonanParkTrail.com"
target="_blank">http://RonanParkTrail.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ManorNeighbors.com"
target="_blank">http://ManorNeighbors.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org"
target="_blank">http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org"
target="_blank">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a><br>
<br>
312-280-7838 (mobile)<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 19, 2010
at 6:44 PM, Thomas Herrmann <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:thomas@openspaceconsulting.com"
target="_blank">thomas@openspaceconsulting.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;
border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="SV">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I
agree with all the thanks Michael
– Txs for the work you’ve done
already!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Sound
like a great proposal to me, even
if I cannot make a technical
evaluation I trust you and others
on the list to have that
competence.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I
think the Swedish OSI might have
some kronor to put into this
transition/maintenance. Let me
know and I’ll put a proposal
forward to our board.<br>
Best regards</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Thomas</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium
medium; border-style: solid none
none; border-color: rgb(181, 196,
223) -moz-use-text-color
-moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt
0cm 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt;">Från:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt;"> OSLIST
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU"
target="_blank">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a>]
<b>För </b>Michael Herman<br>
<b>Skickat:</b> den 19 augusti
2010 19:38<br>
<b>Till:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU"
target="_blank">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a><br>
<b>Ämne:</b> the future of the
oslist -- news and a proposal</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>hello all, a bit of very
important news and a proposal for
the future of the oslist.<br>
<br>
the oslist -- in it's current form
-- will cease to exist within the
next year. i have been in contact
with our boise state hosts and
with the makers of the software
that drives our list and
archives. i've developed a bit of
a work-around plan (working around
paying the software company or
anyone else large sums of money
annually to run the future of the
list). the softward company has
confirmed for me that this (rather
non-standard use of their
software) is indeed technically
feasible. another nice thing
about it is that it makes the
oslist structure look even more
like what we do in open space
meetings. <br>
<br>
the oslist at boise state is done
as of june 30th 2011, they are
cancelling their license and
migrating all university groups to
googlegroups. on that date,
oslist will disappear, unless we
do something to move it. <br>
<br>
IF we can find another
organization to host us as bsu
has, then we can (pay someone to)
migrate our archive and user list
and go on our merry way, subject
again to the whims of their IT
department.<br>
<br>
IF, instead, we choose to fund our
own implementation of the listserv
(brand name) software, we can
migrate our archives and continue
our conversation.<br>
<br>
ALTERNATIVELY, or more
creatively... we can contract with
l-soft directly to set-up and
maintain our archive, control that
for ourselves going forward, AND
set it up in a way that would add
to the archive going forward any
postings from any other email
list, like germany, europe,
australia, uk, etc. what's more,
this turns out to be the cheapest
option, because we only need to
pay for listserv software for the
archiving function, rather than
for a full-blown list that will
deliver to 700 people at a cost of
almost $2 for EVERY message sent
to the list (this assumes we would
pay for the service rather than
license and run this for
ourselves. harrison is fond of
saying that we have done all this
without a marketing department.
why add an IT department now?)
this is my suggestion.<br>
<br>
and this is what i'm proposing
(offering) to do now:<br>
<br>
1. migrate all of our members to a
new oslist at googlegroups (yes,
googlegroups. people who pay
attention to such things seem to
prefer the functionality there and
since our list is public anyway,
there are no issues with privacy
and control of content. but we
will also archive in two other
places, a gmail account AND a
listserv system that will keep
adding all new posts to the old
listserv archive.)<br>
<br>
2. migrate the archive (12 years,
i think, and on our way to 29,000
messages) to a new list that will
have only one member account. <br>
<br>
3. make that one member account (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:oslist@gmail.com"
target="_blank">oslist@gmail.com</a>,
for instance) a member of the new
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:oslist@googlegroups.com"
target="_blank">oslist@googlegroups.com</a>
AND any other lists around the
world. THEN set that member
account to forward everything it
receives to the migrated archive.
so other lists become like
breakouts and the oslist archive a
global community record wall of
what's happening.<br>
<br>
it this way, we achieve: <br>
<br>
1. a new, free, and durable oslist
at googlegroups, with all the
bells and whistles there<br>
2. the survival of the
29,000-message archive in
publicly-searchable perpetuity,
hosted by l-soft (makers of
listserv software)<br>
3. the addition of all new oslist
and other list postings to the
central archive<br>
<br>
what does it cost?<br>
<br>
1. continuing the oslist
conversation in a new googlegroups
oslist account costs nothing.<br>
2. forwarding to the archive of
all os community list mail from
any list, costs nothing<br>
3. migration of the oslist archive
and setup of new archive list
function costs $500<br>
4. the cost of maintaining the
archive would be $500 per year<br>
<br>
i'd expect that $500 is fundable
through donations and could easily
be handled in the normal course of
business and budgeting of the
osi-usa. i assume it's better to
have a legal entity with a
standing bank account take
responsibility for it, rather than
an individual or loose group of
colleagues. but i'll leave it to
osi-usa or another group to say
they'll take this on.<br>
<br>
i *think* that any other solution
to this results in one or more of
the following... loss of the
archives, costs that run to $3000
or $4000 annually (and are totally
variable based on list size),
reliance on volunteer community
members to be our global IT
department, additional cost of
paying community members to admin
the system, reliance on the
goodwill of some other
organization (which might be
generous initially but could pull
the plug with less warning than
we've been given now), no ability
to archive many lists in our one
online record. <br>
<br>
i will check with boise state to
confirm their support for our
migration. i'm told by l-soft
that migrating the archive to a
new location/list is pretty simple
stuff. <br>
<br>
i'm willing to implement this, but
not fund it. i'd like at least
four others to sign on as stewards
of the shift. more would be
fine. and i hope osi-usa will be
the official steward for
donations/funding matters.<br>
<br>
i don't have time right now to
discuss this with 700
subscribers. i'm just one guy,
one list member. this is just my
personal recommendation and
proposal. BUT... if there are
concerns about any of this, i'm
glad to try to keep up with
clarifying questions. <br>
<br>
if you think this is a good way to
proceed, please say so. if you
have something to contribute to
the process (time, attention,
money, etc) please say so. if you
have concerns, let's hear them,
too -- BUT if you think we
shouldn't do something in this
proposal, then bring your own
suggestions and proposals for what
we should do instead, making sure
that the solution as modified (or
replaced) is still complete
(technically, financially, etc.).
<br>
<br>
since we don't have anything to
discuss about IF we should move or
really even WHEN we should move,
the only question is HOW to
preserve the archive and WHERE to
continue the main conversation. <br>
<br>
ideally, this would all happen
when things quiet down a bit at
the end of the year, mid- to
late-december. that's when i
would be most able to support
these things. anyone else could
do it sooner or later, but i do
think that distinguishing our two
tasks, maintaining the archive AND
continuing the conversation, is a
valuable way to think about this
now.<br>
<br>
what can you contribute to this
(new) beginning?<br>
<br>
m<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Michael Herman<br>
Michael Herman Associates<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://MichaelHerman.com"
target="_blank">http://MichaelHerman.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://RonanParkTrail.com"
target="_blank">http://RonanParkTrail.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ManorNeighbors.com"
target="_blank">http://ManorNeighbors.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org"
target="_blank">http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org"
target="_blank">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a><br>
<br>
312-280-7838 (mobile)<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
<font color="#888888">
<div>-- <br>
Harold Shinsato<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:harold@shinsato.com"
target="_blank">harold@shinsato.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://shinsato.com" target="_blank">http://shinsato.com</a><br>
twitter: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://twitter.com/hajush"
target="_blank">@hajush</a></div>
</font></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
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<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Harold Shinsato<br>
<a href="mailto:harold@shinsato.com">harold@shinsato.com</a><br>
<a href="http://shinsato.com">http://shinsato.com</a><br>
twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/hajush">@hajush</a></div>
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>From Sat Aug 21 14:34:25 2010
Message-Id: <SAT.21.AUG.2010.143425.0400.>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:34:25 -0400
Reply-To: chris@got2change.com
To: OSLIST <OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Chris Kloth <chris@got2change.com>
Organization: ChangeWorks of the Heartland
Subject: Re: the future of the oslist -- news and a proposal
X-cc: Michael Herman <michael@michaelherman.com>
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik_Qg9cFec5XYcyuUs4LDDNtDCtSW1RBPV6FR9J@mail.gmail.com>
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Michael, et al.
I'm coming in late, but have read all the posts to date.
Like others I want to thank you for your work on this particular matter,
as well as your list work on behalf of all of us over the years.
I support the principles that are driving the decisions.
I lack the technical and marketplace knowledge to assess hosting and
software options - but trust those of you engaging in that conversation.
It appears that there have been financial pledges sufficient to support
the one time costs, but it is not clear to me how the ongoing costs
might be managed. In any case, once an approach to funding has been
arrived at I am willing to (a) help share the load of the one time costs
in some way, and/or (b) put in my fair share of the ongoing costs.
Shalom,
Chris Kloth
Michael Herman wrote:
> hello all, a bit of very important news and a proposal for the future
> of the oslist.
>
> the oslist -- in it's current form -- will cease to exist within the
> next year. i have been in contact with our boise state hosts and with
> the makers of the software that drives our list and archives. i've
> developed a bit of a work-around plan (working around paying the
> software company or anyone else large sums of money annually to run
> the future of the list). the softward company has confirmed for me
> that this (rather non-standard use of their software) is indeed
> technically feasible. another nice thing about it is that it makes
> the oslist structure look even more like what we do in open space
> meetings.
>
> the oslist at boise state is done as of june 30th 2011, they are
> cancelling their license and migrating all university groups to
> googlegroups. on that date, oslist will disappear, unless we do
> something to move it.
>
> IF we can find another organization to host us as bsu has, then we can
> (pay someone to) migrate our archive and user list and go on our merry
> way, subject again to the whims of their IT department.
>
> IF, instead, we choose to fund our own implementation of the listserv
> (brand name) software, we can migrate our archives and continue our
> conversation.
>
> ALTERNATIVELY, or more creatively... we can contract with l-soft
> directly to set-up and maintain our archive, control that for
> ourselves going forward, AND set it up in a way that would add to the
> archive going forward any postings from any other email list, like
> germany, europe, australia, uk, etc. what's more, this turns out to
> be the cheapest option, because we only need to pay for listserv
> software for the archiving function, rather than for a full-blown list
> that will deliver to 700 people at a cost of almost $2 for EVERY
> message sent to the list (this assumes we would pay for the service
> rather than license and run this for ourselves. harrison is fond of
> saying that we have done all this without a marketing department. why
> add an IT department now?) this is my suggestion.
>
> and this is what i'm proposing (offering) to do now:
>
> 1. migrate all of our members to a new oslist at googlegroups (yes,
> googlegroups. people who pay attention to such things seem to prefer
> the functionality there and since our list is public anyway, there are
> no issues with privacy and control of content. but we will also
> archive in two other places, a gmail account AND a listserv system
> that will keep adding all new posts to the old listserv archive.)
>
> 2. migrate the archive (12 years, i think, and on our way to 29,000
> messages) to a new list that will have only one member account.
>
> 3. make that one member account (oslist@gmail.com
> <mailto:oslist@gmail.com>, for instance) a member of the new
> oslist@googlegroups.com <mailto:oslist@googlegroups.com> AND any other
> lists around the world. THEN set that member account to forward
> everything it receives to the migrated archive. so other lists become
> like breakouts and the oslist archive a global community record wall
> of what's happening.
>
> it this way, we achieve:
>
> 1. a new, free, and durable oslist at googlegroups, with all the bells
> and whistles there
> 2. the survival of the 29,000-message archive in publicly-searchable
> perpetuity, hosted by l-soft (makers of listserv software)
> 3. the addition of all new oslist and other list postings to the
> central archive
>
> what does it cost?
>
> 1. continuing the oslist conversation in a new googlegroups oslist
> account costs nothing.
> 2. forwarding to the archive of all os community list mail from any
> list, costs nothing
> 3. migration of the oslist archive and setup of new archive list
> function costs $500
> 4. the cost of maintaining the archive would be $500 per year
>
> i'd expect that $500 is fundable through donations and could easily be
> handled in the normal course of business and budgeting of the
> osi-usa. i assume it's better to have a legal entity with a standing
> bank account take responsibility for it, rather than an individual or
> loose group of colleagues. but i'll leave it to osi-usa or another
> group to say they'll take this on.
>
> i *think* that any other solution to this results in one or more of
> the following... loss of the archives, costs that run to $3000 or
> $4000 annually (and are totally variable based on list size), reliance
> on volunteer community members to be our global IT department,
> additional cost of paying community members to admin the system,
> reliance on the goodwill of some other organization (which might be
> generous initially but could pull the plug with less warning than
> we've been given now), no ability to archive many lists in our one
> online record.
>
> i will check with boise state to confirm their support for our
> migration. i'm told by l-soft that migrating the archive to a new
> location/list is pretty simple stuff.
>
> i'm willing to implement this, but not fund it. i'd like at least
> four others to sign on as stewards of the shift. more would be fine.
> and i hope osi-usa will be the official steward for donations/funding
> matters.
>
> i don't have time right now to discuss this with 700 subscribers. i'm
> just one guy, one list member. this is just my personal
> recommendation and proposal. BUT... if there are concerns about any
> of this, i'm glad to try to keep up with clarifying questions.
>
> if you think this is a good way to proceed, please say so. if you
> have something to contribute to the process (time, attention, money,
> etc) please say so. if you have concerns, let's hear them, too -- BUT
> if you think we shouldn't do something in this proposal, then bring
> your own suggestions and proposals for what we should do instead,
> making sure that the solution as modified (or replaced) is still
> complete (technically, financially, etc.).
>
> since we don't have anything to discuss about IF we should move or
> really even WHEN we should move, the only question is HOW to preserve
> the archive and WHERE to continue the main conversation.
>
> ideally, this would all happen when things quiet down a bit at the end
> of the year, mid- to late-december. that's when i would be most able
> to support these things. anyone else could do it sooner or later, but
> i do think that distinguishing our two tasks, maintaining the archive
> AND continuing the conversation, is a valuable way to think about this
> now.
>
> what can you contribute to this (new) beginning?
>
> m
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Michael Herman
> Michael Herman Associates
>
> http://MichaelHerman.com
> http://RonanParkTrail.com
> http://ManorNeighbors.com
> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>
> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>
>
> * * ==========================================================
> OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
> oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu:
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
--
ÐÏࡱá
*
*
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Michael, et al.<br>
<br>
I'm coming in late, but have read all the posts to date.<br>
<br>
Like others I want to thank you for your work on this particular
matter, as well as your list work on behalf of all of us over the years.<br>
<br>
I support the principles that are driving the decisions.<br>
<br>
I lack the technical and marketplace knowledge to assess hosting and
software options - but trust those of you engaging in that conversation.<br>
<br>
It appears that there have been financial pledges sufficient to support
the one time costs, but it is not clear to me how the ongoing costs
might be managed. In any case, once an approach to funding has been
arrived at I am willing to (a) help share the load of the one time
costs in some way, and/or (b) put in my fair share of the ongoing costs.<br>
<br>
Shalom,<br>
<br>
Chris Kloth<br>
<br>
Michael Herman wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTik_Qg9cFec5XYcyuUs4LDDNtDCtSW1RBPV6FR9J@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">hello all, a bit of very important news and a proposal for
the future of the oslist.<br>
<br>
the oslist -- in it's current form -- will cease to exist within the
next year. i have been in contact with our boise state hosts and with
the makers of the software that drives our list and archives. i've
developed a bit of a work-around plan (working around paying the
software company or anyone else large sums of money annually to run the
future of the list). the softward company has confirmed for me that
this (rather non-standard use of their software) is indeed technically
feasible. another nice thing about it is that it makes the oslist
structure look even more like what we do in open space meetings. <br>
<br>
the oslist at boise state is done as of june 30th 2011, they are
cancelling their license and migrating all university groups to
googlegroups. on that date, oslist will disappear, unless we do
something to move it. <br>
<br>
IF we can find another organization to host us as bsu has, then we can
(pay someone to) migrate our archive and user list and go on our merry
way, subject again to the whims of their IT department.<br>
<br>
IF, instead, we choose to fund our own implementation of the listserv
(brand name) software, we can migrate our archives and continue our
conversation.<br>
<br>
ALTERNATIVELY, or more creatively... we can contract with l-soft
directly to set-up and maintain our archive, control that for ourselves
going forward, AND set it up in a way that would add to the archive
going forward any postings from any other email list, like germany,
europe, australia, uk, etc. what's more, this turns out to be the
cheapest option, because we only need to pay for listserv software for
the archiving function, rather than for a full-blown list that will
deliver to 700 people at a cost of almost $2 for EVERY message sent to
the list (this assumes we would pay for the service rather than license
and run this for ourselves. harrison is fond of saying that we have
done all this without a marketing department. why add an IT department
now?) this is my suggestion.<br>
<br>
and this is what i'm proposing (offering) to do now:<br>
<br>
1. migrate all of our members to a new oslist at googlegroups (yes,
googlegroups. people who pay attention to such things seem to prefer
the functionality there and since our list is public anyway, there are
no issues with privacy and control of content. but we will also
archive in two other places, a gmail account AND a listserv system that
will keep adding all new posts to the old listserv archive.)<br>
<br>
2. migrate the archive (12 years, i think, and on our way to 29,000
messages) to a new list that will have only one member account. <br>
<br>
3. make that one member account (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:oslist@gmail.com">oslist@gmail.com</a>, for instance) a
member of the new <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:oslist@googlegroups.com">oslist@googlegroups.com</a> AND
any other lists around the world. THEN set that member account to
forward everything it receives to the migrated archive. so other lists
become like breakouts and the oslist archive a global community record
wall of what's happening.<br>
<br>
it this way, we achieve: <br>
<br>
1. a new, free, and durable oslist at googlegroups, with all the bells
and whistles there<br>
2. the survival of the 29,000-message archive in publicly-searchable
perpetuity, hosted by l-soft (makers of listserv software)<br>
3. the addition of all new oslist and other list postings to the
central archive<br>
<br>
what does it cost?<br>
<br>
1. continuing the oslist conversation in a new googlegroups oslist
account costs nothing.<br>
2. forwarding to the archive of all os community list mail from any
list, costs nothing<br>
3. migration of the oslist archive and setup of new archive list
function costs $500<br>
4. the cost of maintaining the archive would be $500 per year<br>
<br>
i'd expect that $500 is fundable through donations and could easily be
handled in the normal course of business and budgeting of the osi-usa.
i assume it's better to have a legal entity with a standing bank
account take responsibility for it, rather than an individual or loose
group of colleagues. but i'll leave it to osi-usa or another group to
say they'll take this on.<br>
<br>
i *think* that any other solution to this results in one or more of the
following... loss of the archives, costs that run to $3000 or $4000
annually (and are totally variable based on list size), reliance on
volunteer community members to be our global IT department, additional
cost of paying community members to admin the system, reliance on the
goodwill of some other organization (which might be generous initially
but could pull the plug with less warning than we've been given now),
no ability to archive many lists in our one online record. <br>
<br>
i will check with boise state to confirm their support for our
migration. i'm told by l-soft that migrating the archive to a new
location/list is pretty simple stuff. <br>
<br>
i'm willing to implement this, but not fund it. i'd like at least four
others to sign on as stewards of the shift. more would be fine. and i
hope osi-usa will be the official steward for donations/funding matters.<br>
<br>
i don't have time right now to discuss this with 700 subscribers. i'm
just one guy, one list member. this is just my personal recommendation
and proposal. BUT... if there are concerns about any of this, i'm glad
to try to keep up with clarifying questions. <br>
<br>
if you think this is a good way to proceed, please say so. if you have
something to contribute to the process (time, attention, money, etc)
please say so. if you have concerns, let's hear them, too -- BUT if
you think we shouldn't do something in this proposal, then bring your
own suggestions and proposals for what we should do instead, making
sure that the solution as modified (or replaced) is still complete
(technically, financially, etc.). <br>
<br>
since we don't have anything to discuss about IF we should move or
really even WHEN we should move, the only question is HOW to preserve
the archive and WHERE to continue the main conversation. <br>
<br>
ideally, this would all happen when things quiet down a bit at the end
of the year, mid- to late-december. that's when i would be most able
to support these things. anyone else could do it sooner or later, but
i do think that distinguishing our two tasks, maintaining the archive
AND continuing the conversation, is a valuable way to think about this
now.<br>
<br>
what can you contribute to this (new) beginning?<br>
<br>
m<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Michael Herman<br>
Michael Herman Associates<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://MichaelHerman.com">http://MichaelHerman.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://RonanParkTrail.com">http://RonanParkTrail.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://ManorNeighbors.com">http://ManorNeighbors.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org">http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a><br>
<br>
312-280-7838 (mobile)<br>
<br>
<br>
*
*
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<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
ÐÏࡱá</pre>
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