Thanks for the NVC tip Karen :) .<br><br>I in fact worked at BayNVC in 2002 and I am very familiar with it as yet another method in the tool box for engaging in dialogue. It is particularly valuable in the face to face - interpersonal. I am not sure "expressing my needs" in that NVC way would really have gotten us to where we are in this dialogue. It would have come across as passive and helpless. It also doesn't work online in large group dialogue. <br>
<br>I am very sorry you feel uncofortable with direct and frank talk about the nature of how several of us have experienced Micheal's management style of what was supposedly "THE worldwide home of <em>Open Space</em> Technology"<br>
<br>It was only through the intensity of the dialogue and holding on to truth and calling a spade a spade that he actually got clear with everyone that it was "HIS site". Someone said to me you know this is the first time he has ever said it was "his" site. Truthful clarity came forward. <br>
<br>Tree Fitzpatrick is the only person who spoke up and shared her personal experiences in trying to deal with Michael's supposed openness. Others have shared their experiences but choose not to do so publically. <br>
<br>The thing that struck me about the dialogue with Micheal was that he used "open spaceisms" to be defensive and not answer me directly. This was a behavior that I first experienced in the NVC community (by staff people I worked with at BayNFC) where people would start "NVCing" you when they disagreed and mask a whole power trip they were playing. <br>
<br>Tools and models are just that - NVC is a tool appropriate for some places but not applicable or useful everywhere, Open Space is a tool but not appropriate or applicable everwhere or in every mode of human organization. <br>
<br>Regards, <br>-Kaliya<br><br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Karen Sella <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:karen@luminacoaching.com" target="_blank">karen@luminacoaching.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Hi Kaliya,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I agree that this conversation has been useful in helping
you organize your efforts around more truth, and I’m delighted that you
are taking responsibility for your passion in and for this community. I appreciate
your desire to offer more alternatives and educate those of us with less
technical prowess about the various options. However, when you make
disparaging remarks about Michael (or <i><span style="font-style: italic;">anyone</span></i>)
and his website, I feel disrespected as a member of this community. When
you characterize a member of our community as a “dominating” “dictator”
who’s “blocking progress” and being dishonest—not “coming
clean”—I distrust both your motives and your capacity for civil
discourse. When you frame his website as a “dysfunctional default”
that is somehow less than the “new and better real home” for this
community that your efforts will provide, I feel sad that in your efforts to
build something new, you neglect to express more appreciation for what is and
what has been. </span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">These comments seem unnecessarily dismissive and partial,
and undermine my desire to receive your potentially valuable contribution.
However, being open-minded, I followed the link in your invitation, and upon
arriving there was disappointed to find more negative commentary about Michael
and his website amidst more productive suggestions about possible options.
</span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>I am sorry that you feel uncomfortable. <br>You have not been a part of m<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-US"><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#4b9e9c" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(75, 158, 156);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">While various professions do indeed have different "normative
conflict levels," and there are those in all professions who could be described
as “conflict-averse,” I suspect that much discomfort here has less
to do with normative conflict levels than differing norms about how to deal
with conflict. As my messages to date must demonstrate, I am not
conflict-averse, but I am averse to personal attacks. Blaming, name-calling
and yelling make me uncomfortable. Unless one happens to be shouting for
joy, shouting actually makes it more difficult for me to hear and listen.
In my experience, these kinds of tactics, which we all are guilty of engaging
in from time to time, <i><span style="font-style: italic;">close</span></i>
rather than open space. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I understand from what you have shared that you are really
attempting to open space and improve this community’s online experience.
I can imagine how frustrating it must be to have a clear vision of what you
want and feel unheard or thwarted in your attempts to garner the support to
make it happen, and you are, of course, entitled to share your opinions as you
choose. However, I would be more comfortable and more receptive to your
efforts if you could share your perspective without engaging in these kinds of
tactics. I think someone else mentioned Marshall Rosenberg’s, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Marshall-Rosenberg/dp/1892005034/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258675009&sr=8-1" target="_blank">Nonviolent
Communication</a>, which if you have not already discovered it, is a great
resource for learning constructive approaches to communication congruent with
the norms of this list-serv. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Sincerely,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Karen<font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 3pt; margin-left: 9pt;"><font size="1" color="#4b9e9c" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(75, 158, 156);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="#409f9d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(64, 159, 157);"><a href="http://www.luminacoaching.com/" target="_blank"></a><span><font color="#409f9d"><span style="color: rgb(64, 159, 157); text-decoration: none;"></span></font></span></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="#409f9d" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(64, 159, 157);"><a href="http://www.luminacoaching.com/" target="_blank"><font color="#409f9d"><span style="color: rgb(64, 159, 157); text-decoration: none;"><img src="" width="195" border="0" height="44"></span></font></a></span></font><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: 9pt;"><font size="2" color="#4b9e9c" face="Perpetua"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Perpetua; color: rgb(75, 158, 156);"> lumina fr. L. <i><i><font face="Perpetua"><span style="font-family: Perpetua;">light, air, opening... </span></font></i></i></span></font><i><i><font size="2" color="navy" face="Perpetua"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Perpetua; color: navy;"></span></font></i></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 3pt; margin-left: 0in;"><font size="1" color="#4b9e9c" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(75, 158, 156);"> </span></font></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 3pt; margin-left: 0in;"><font size="1" color="#4b9e9c" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(75, 158, 156);">Karen Sella </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="#4b9e9c" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(75, 158, 156);">Coaching: <a href="http://www.luminacoaching.com" target="_blank"><font color="#4b9e9c"><span style="color: rgb(75, 158, 156);">www.luminacoaching.com</span></font></a></span></font><font size="1" color="#409f9d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(64, 159, 157);"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 3pt; margin-left: 0in;"><font size="1" color="#4b9e9c" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(75, 158, 156);">Consulting: <a href="http://www.integralventures.com" target="_blank"><font color="#4b9e9c"><span style="color: rgb(75, 158, 156);">www.integralventures.com</span></font></a></span></font><font size="1" color="#4b9e9c"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(75, 158, 156);"></span></font></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 3pt; margin-left: 0in;"><font size="1" color="#4b9e9c" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(75, 158, 156);">Phone: 1.206.780.2998</span></font><font size="1" color="#4b9e9c"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(75, 158, 156);"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 3pt; margin-left: 0in;"><font size="1" color="#4b9e9c" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(75, 158, 156);">Skype: karensella</span></font><font size="1" color="#4b9e9c"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(75, 158, 156);"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.75in;"><font size="3" color="#4b9e9c" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(75, 158, 156);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><font size="1" color="#4b9e9c" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(75, 158, 156); font-style: italic;">The
information contained in this message may be privileged, confidential and
protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any
dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you
think that you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by
reply and delete the message and any attachments.</span></font></i><i><font size="1" color="#4b9e9c" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(75, 158, 156); font-style: italic;"></span></font></i></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> OSLIST [mailto:<a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU" target="_blank">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Kaliya *<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, November 19, 2009
12:49 PM<div><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU" target="_blank">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a><br>
</div><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [OSLIST] re honouring each other</span></font></p>
</div><div><div></div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Chris Corrigan <<a href="mailto:chris.corrigan@gmail.com" target="_blank">chris.corrigan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></font></p>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I'm a little late to this conversation but I'd like to add my two
cents. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Thank you to all who hold space for the various ways that we are able
to connect our work to people that need it. And thank you to Michael for the
tireless work he does on the openspace world website. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">No one controls the number one spot in Google. It's all about how many
people link to you. If you have quality stuff and people link to it you'll go
higher in the rankings. I have no doubt that the ning site has all the
potential to be number one and that would be great. But let's be clear that
there is no way to conspire to keep others out of the top spots. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">These strange personal attacks on the list do nothing to advance the
community's work. It is highly out of character for this community to engage
like this. I know everyone involved in this dispute personally and I am having
a hard time ascribing motives or squaring what I am reading with what i know of
these people personally. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">We can all be prickly at times but is this a fight that is necessary to
have?</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
Yes.<br>
<br>
It got some things out in the open and on the table. <br>
Clarity about who owns and controls what and how they "really" want
to manage/hold things on behalf of the community. <br>
<br>
Now that things are clearer we have more options - more openness - rather then
being stuck in what was a dysfunctional default (the way it always was). <br>
<br>
I realized in working with a journalism focused group that the tech industry
has a "higher normative conflict level" then many other professional
fields. <br>
<br>
The primary community that I facilitate open space for in that world - the
Internet Identity Workshop - <a href="http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com" target="_blank">http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com</a>
is going into it's 10th meeting this coming May. The largest tech
companies on the web are all in there and all in sort of ongoing "perma-conflict"
re how things will evolve and they all love each other and cooperate with each
other. <br>
<br>
I am sorry if this dialogue has made those of you who as facilitators are
conflict averse feel "uncomfortable" but it is through naming and
challenging and getting clarity about what people really mean and what their
intentions are that we can move forward. <br>
<br>
<br>
-Kaliya<br>
</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">With gratitude for passion bounded by responsibility. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Chris</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">-----</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">CHRIS CORRIGAN</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><a href="http://www.chriscorrigan.com" target="_blank">http://www.chriscorrigan.com</a></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Sent from an iPod, typed with thumbs...</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
On 2009-11-18, at 3:18, Tree Fitzpatrick <<a href="mailto:therese.fitzpatrick@gmail.com" target="_blank">therese.fitzpatrick@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">For what it is worth, I
experience Kaliya's comments as powerful, even courageous efforts to open
space.<br>
<br>
For what it is worth, I experience Michael's comments as name-calling,
denigrating, invalidating, dishonoring. I find myself wishing he would make
less attack statements and more 'I' statements, telling us what he thinks and
feels without attacking others shared thoughts and feelings.</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Karen Sella <<a href="mailto:karen@luminacoaching.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:karen@luminacoaching.com" target="_blank">karen@luminacoaching.com</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">For what it's worth, I experienced all the comments from Michael and
others<br>
as adding useful perspectives to the conversation--not invalidating or<br>
dishonoring... just sharing yet another perspective.<br>
<br>
Warmly,<br>
Karen<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Karen Sella<br>
Coaching: <a href="http://www.luminacoaching.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.luminacoaching.com" target="_blank">www.luminacoaching.com</a><br>
Consulting: <a href="http://www.integralventures.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.integralventures.com" target="_blank">www.integralventures.com</a><br>
Blog: <a href="http://www.lumina.typepad.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.lumina.typepad.com" target="_blank">www.lumina.typepad.com</a><br>
Phone: 1.206.780.2998<br>
Skype: karensella<br>
<br>
<br>
lumina fr. L. light, air, opening...<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The information contained in this message may be privileged, confidential<br>
and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any<br>
dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you
think<br>
that you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by<br>
reply and delete the message and any attachments.</span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: OSLIST [mailto:<a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU" target="_blank">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a>]
On Behalf Of Kathie<br>
Wallace<br>
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:10 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU" target="_blank">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a><br>
Subject: [OSLIST] re honouring each
other<br>
<br>
Hi Everyone,<br>
I have been following this community for a while and will soon start<br>
sharing info. Many thanks for all the enlivening info. I am grateful.<br>
I feel the need to speak in response to Michael's comments re Kaliya's<br>
thoughts.<br>
OST is about staying open and positive and welcoming of all perspectives<br>
and ideas, as I experience it. Critiquing and judging and saying "no"
to<br>
ideas stops the new, constantly self-emerging outflowing of ideas that is<br>
creating a continual shared meaning among us all that excites me to no<br>
end.<br>
<br>
All of Kaliya's ideas are valid.<br>
<br>
Michael, may I suggest you own your own ideas more powerfully by using<br>
phrases like "in my opinion" or using the pronoun "I"
rather than "you"<br>
when you share your own ideas.<br>
<br>
...and on with the OST dance,<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
Kathie Wallace<br>
Vancouver, BC, Canada<br>
<br>
*<br>
*<br>
==========================================================<br>
<a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU" target="_blank">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a><br>
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<br>
-- <br>
Love rays,<br>
Tree Fitzpatrick (check out my new address)<br>
<br>
<br>
. . . the great and incalculable grace of love, which says, with Augustine,
"I want you to be," without being able to give any particular reason
for such supreme and unsurpassable affirmation. -- Hannah Arendt<br>
<br>
2175 Kittredge St
Apt 615<br>
Berkeley, CA
94704<br>
510-665-4825<br>
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