<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Harold Shinsato <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:harold@shinsato.com">harold@shinsato.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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Hi Kaliya, while I'm not as uncomfortable with closed proprietary
standards, I think that's mostly a weakness on my part and I applaud
your call for us to use more open standards. </div></blockquote><div>you need to pick "open platforms" that use "open standards"<br><br>open platforms (that you can download, tweek and install "yourself" on your servers (or host in the cloud - but that you manage)<br>
<br>I would start with a community blog on wordpress (I have said this before - not rocket science)<br>I would install Media wiki or dekiwiki or any one of several other open source and mainstream wiki platforms.<br><br>Both of them should use OpenID for Login. <br>
<br>Open Standards in this space are just emering and libraries/modules are being built out for open platforms. They include activity streams, XRD, Webfinger, Salmon-Protocol, OAuth, WARP. etc... I don't want to go into what they all mean but they are about building distributed (not on one platform with one name space) open versions of what Ning and other closed networks like Facebook and Myspace. Goodnews is that Myspace is a leading player in <br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">I don't think it's going
to happen without leaders to take it on. I'm willing to chip in for
something - how can we make it happen? What sets of standards to you
recommend? I think we could do it for less than $150 a year - but maybe
there's a way to do it cheaper?</div></blockquote><div><br>Space costs money. not that much but why the focus on "super cheap" all the time. <br><br>What I am proposing costs far less in "fees" to run per year then it would in actually investing in design to make it both beautiful and information architecturally sound. <br>
<br>It is not complicated - it does require thought and sound reasoning - I think the appropriate home is OSI - where there shoudl be enough budget to do the basics of what I have "proposed" I say propsed in qutes cause "I don't know the answer" it needs to be a dialgoue about what are the use cases (stories of how we want to use the web together to share our work with each other and the world) a dialogue about what the values are behind our choices and what ones are more important (cause you always make compromises in choosing tech) - for example <br>
<br>do we have a value that when possible we choose an open source tool/platform?<br><br> are we committed to supporting and adopting open standards for people on the web that support them moving about with autonomy and agency (not getting a new user/name and password on every website) <br>
<br>what I have outlined is based on an assumption that we "do" but we have not talked about it as a community and then made consious choices with those in mind .<br><br>We have defaulted to what one guy did many many years ago and then left it at that because it was "sufficient" - I don't think it is any longer. It is not managed in a collaborative way. This management style does not reflect the values of Open Space. It is also "unsafe" that if this key person "gets hit by a truck" we loose it completely (they know all the passwords to get in and manage it an no one else does) Not good. Irresponsible in today's world. <br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> If not, I'm willing to put some $ into
it, though it may not get used if folks don't "get it" the way you
do... Any thoughts about how to get broad adoption? Anyway, consider me
a helper if you want to spearhead something.<br></div></blockquote><div><br>It would be great to have you as a helper. <br>I am prepared to contribute to OS Institute work on this front.<br><br>-Kaliya<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<br>
Harold</font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
Kaliya * wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">While appreciate the invitation to this space. <br>
<br>
I really object to bringing the community to private service. The
company NING is just like facebook or myspace it is managed and
controlled ultimately by a corporation. <br>
<br>
It is closed source (the code that is used underlying the site is owned
and not viewable by us).<br>
<br>
The data of our use and the people on it - it is not clear about
where it goes. <br>
<br>
The community life all the information is "stuck" in the system - it is
not using open standards - so that at some point we wanted to leave
NING we could.<br>
<br>
Ning does not have open standards avaliable for the activities on the
site and HAS NOT BEEN INVOLVED IN ANY of the conversations around
developing or adopting those under development for social activities on
the web. <br>
<br>
There is NO Reason to do this. <br>
<br>
I think it would be much more responsible to get a REAL COMMUNITY LIFE
AROUND <br>
<br>
1) A WIKI that is build on an open source "mainstream" wiki. <br>
2) A BLOG with community members contributing to and with different
members free to start their own blogs<br>
3) A robust commenting system<br>
4) A twitter strategy for lists and community connections in that
medium. <br>
<br>
ALL of the above can be built on open source tools <br>
On servers that we manage and control. ( Or in the cloud but on our
terms and we can move to a new service if we don't like. )<br>
<br>
No corporate entity can choose to turn it off. We "own" it. <br>
<br>
All of the above can implement a common way to let members of the
community login across all of them with one login/password using
OpenID. <br>
<br>
NING HAS NOT PLANS to Implement OpenID - (or any of the other standards)<br>
<a href="http://developer.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=1185512%3ATopic%3A11361" target="_blank">http://developer.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=1185512%3ATopic%3A11361</a><br>
<br>
<br>
I have been talking about this for well over a year but apparently
there is no movement by the Open Space institute by the actually
developing the community tools in community. <br>
<br>
<br>
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<div style="margin-left: 40px;"><font size="-1"><b>Kaliya *
<<a href="mailto:identitywoman@gmail.com" target="_blank">identitywoman@gmail.com</a>>
</b></font><font size="-1">
<div>To:
OSLIST <<a href="mailto:OSLIST@listserv.boisestate.edu" target="_blank">OSLIST@listserv.boisestate.edu</a>>
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<font size="-1"><b>Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:10 PM
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<div style="margin-left: 40px;"><font size="-1">Lisa just
pinged me about this e-mail on the list and asked I respond. </font><br>
<font size="-1">I
don't have time until next week to surface and comment fully. I on the
4th day of 12 days in a row of "traditional" conferences that I
attending as a participant speaker. </font><br>
<font size="-1"></font><br>
<br>
<font size="-1">At the core of a comment I made in
response to a request for a donation to the OSI USA. </font><br>
<font size="-1">I would like to see the core community
site have:</font><br>
<font size="-1">*
a mainstream wiki that has broad access rights. (this is an editable
website) yes there is currently a wiki - and no it is not a current
mainstream wiki platform (there for has a non-normal syntax) and it has
restricted access rights. </font><br>
<font size="-1">* an aggregation of blogs and another one
for microblogging for
practitioners that pulls in the feeds from all the things that
practitioners publish in these formats aggregated (via RSS) into one
space (example from my technical community is Planet Identity (<a href="http://www.planetidentity.org/" target="_blank">http://www.planetidentity.org</a>)</font><br>
<font size="-1">* admin access rights and responsibility
held by several people (not
just one person who if hit by a truck basically limits capacity of the
whole community to function). </font><br>
<br>
<font size="-1"><font color="#888888">-Kaliya</font></font><br>
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TECHNOLOGY strategy for this community should be done in an open
transparent way. <br>
<br>
It should use "the best of" open source (this is very different then
"free tools" that are closed source and corporate owned with "them
untimately in control) and focus on using open standards where
possible. <br>
<br>
It should be developed in a way that includes the wisdom of those of us
with tech backgrounds and done in a way that explains our decisions to
smart people who are "not techies" so they understand the
decisions/strategies and agree they are in alignment with the community
values and vision. <br>
<br>
<br>
<font size="+2"><b>global proceedings aggregator?</b></font><br>
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<font size="-1"><b>Michael Herman
<<a href="mailto:michael@michaelherman.com" target="_blank">michael@michaelherman.com</a>>
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<font size="-1"><b>Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 11:54 PM
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<div>Reply-To:
OSLIST <<a href="mailto:OSLIST@listserv.boisestate.edu" target="_blank">OSLIST@listserv.boisestate.edu</a>>
</div>
<div>
To:
<a href="mailto:OSLIST@listserv.boisestate.edu" target="_blank">OSLIST@listserv.boisestate.edu</a>
</div>
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<font size="-1">here's a new one, i think. for the techies
among us.<br>
<br>
how would you capture proceedings if you were to have, say, dozens, or<br>
even hundreds of events convened simultaneously and you wanted<br>
everybody everywhere to be able to post their proceedings into one<br>
central place. everybody except spammers, of course. videos can be<br>
posted to youtube and tagged. photos to flickr. but what about the<br>
text proceedings? and there is also the issue of a directory of event<br>
locations. hoping this wouldn't require a dedicated<br>
application/platform. here are some ideas.<br>
<br>
-listserve like yahoo or google group - non-public is a downside<br>
-facebook group - non-public is downside here too<br>
-wiki - might be too complex for rapid scale-up<br>
-blog - might be coolest, but might require moderation<br>
-twitter - might there be a way to collect only the issues raised<br>
everywhere? tagged by location, perhaps? could happen more places<br>
cuz could send from cellphones?<br>
-blog - could make a post or page for every event reported and then<br>
let them post comments.<br>
-just get everyone to start their own simple, free blog and use a blog<br>
aggregator... might miss a lot of sites.<br>
-google docs?<br>
-blog with a single "guest/contributor" username and password,<br>
publicly posted, with user only allowed to post reports, tagging for<br>
author and location within the post?<br>
<br>
...this last option might be best, but then we get to the question of<br>
what if it all really works and folks wanted to post some stream of<br>
ongoing results and actions. could happen. so the system might want<br>
to support that.<br>
<br>
anything else you can think of out there in social networking space<br>
that could support such a thing?<br>
<br>
i think i like the twitter option, but have no idea if it can be made<br>
to function in this way. could all of this be aimed at a single<br>
twitter name, or just tagged with a single twitter tag? and somehow<br>
captured in a way taht was searchable and scrollable long after the<br>
first events occured?<br>
then there's the scenario where somehow we get to hack up a new<br>
version of the world map <grin>.<br>
so that's as far as i can guess, and maybe even a little past that.
thoughts?<br>
many thanks,<br>
<br>
m<br>
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<br>
I read now that someone wrote in this thread "that NING does all this"
I should have brought forward these concerns then and perhaps get
movement going in an open direction. I am sorry i didn't track that
thread. When I popped up and made the
preceding comment I prefaced it saying I was in the middle of
conference season.<br>
<br>
You are all in luck. I just "finished" my unconference season and have
time to actually give to the communities I love and care about. <br>
<br>
<font size="2"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I
appreciate the care and attention that </span></font><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 11px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: 11px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: 11px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><font color="#0000ff" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14px;"><b><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium; font-weight: normal;"><font size="2"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Artur
Silva (Portugal), Shufang Tsai (Taiwan) and Lisa Heft (USA) have put
forward to do this. </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I get that it
was a utilitarian choice and was not informed by deeper issues and
values choices that are being made by using closed source, proprietary
and non-open standards based tools. It was only done in love with the
best intentions. I feel I have to speak up because I am technologically
literate particularly in this area about openness and standards - it is
where my core open space facilitation work is - with communities
developing an open layer of the web that is social and community
driven. <br>
<br>
I hope that I can work with others in the community who want to make
the most open choices possible and a collaborative on a future looking
online/tech strategy for the community. <br>
</span></font></span></b></span></font></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
Regards, <br>
-Kaliya<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Lisa Heft <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lisaheft@openingspace.net" target="_blank">lisaheft@openingspace.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
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<div><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 11px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: 11px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">
<div><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: 11px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">
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<div><font color="#0000ff" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14px;"><b><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium; font-weight: normal;">
<div>Artur Silva (Portugal), Shufang Tsai (Taiwan) and Lisa Heft
(USA)</div>
<div><font color="#811107" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9px;"><i><font color="#000000"><span style="font-style: normal;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 11px;"><span style="font-size: medium;">
<div>welcome you to join us at the:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><font size="-0"><font color="#8406ff"><font size="4"><span style="font-size: 14px;"><b>Open Space World Community Ning site</b></span></font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#007e80"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 11px;"><b>A gathering place for sharing, learning,
resources and community.</b></span></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#007e80"><br>
</font></div>
<div>-- create and host or join a regional group in your own
language</div>
<div>-- see the photos of members - including your wonderful OSLIST
colleagues</div>
<div>-- post links to photos, videos, tweets or blogs</div>
<div>-- create calendar listings for your events</div>
<div>-- post and share resources</div>
<div>-- create or join a theme-based group about whatever you would
like!</div>
<div>-- engage in live chat.</div>
<div><font color="#007e80"><br>
</font></div>
<div>This co-created Ning web portal for all things Open Space is a
compliment to the rich and welcoming dialogue of OSLIST and all our
web-based resources such as <a href="http://openspaceworld.org" target="_blank">openspaceworld.org</a>
</div>
<div><font color="#007e80"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 11px;"><b>It is free.</b></span></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#007e80"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 11px;"><b>Come and co-create.</b></span></font></font></div>
<div>The seedling has sprouted - let us grow this lovely learning
tree.</div>
<div>Jump right on - sign in - create your own page and begin.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</span></span></font></span></font></i></span></font></div>
</span></b></span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</span></span></span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;">(<i>It
is new...in its Beta stage...we are still trying out design and
functions...come visit us there, enjoy using it, share any ideas for
improvement you may recommend...there is even a 'Caring for this Online
Community' Group you can join...and if anything does not work smoothly
we will all learn and share how to fix it..</i>.)</blockquote>
<div><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">
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<div><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 11px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: 11px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">
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<div>
<div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14px;"><b><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium; font-weight: normal;">
<div><font color="#811107" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9px;"><i><font color="#000000"><span style="font-style: normal;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 11px;"><span style="font-size: medium;">
<div>
<div><font color="#007e80"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#007e80"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#8406ff"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 11px;"><b>Do join us in this nutritious and diverse
community meeting place</b></span></font></font><font color="#1700ff">.</font></div>
<div><font color="#007e80"><br>
</font></div>
<div><a href="http://openspaceworld.ning.com/" target="_blank"><font color="#8406ff"><font size="4"><span style="font-size: 14px;"><b>http://openspaceworld.ning.com</b></span></font></font></a></div>
<div><font color="#007e80"><br>
</font></div>
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<div>We will continue our rich and vibrant dialogues here on
OSLIST, and we will see you also in the Open Space World Community Ning
site...</div>
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<div>Artur, Shufang and Lisa</div>
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</blockquote>
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