<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>When I click in Reply all (and not only Reply) it goes to the list.</DIV>
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<DIV>Artur<BR><BR>--- On <B>Sat, 9/12/09, douglas germann <I><76066.515@compuserve.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: douglas germann <76066.515@compuserve.com><BR>Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Christopher Alexander & the space we are shaping<BR>To: OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<BR>Date: Saturday, September 12, 2009, 4:34 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV class=plainMail>Hi Wendy and all--<BR><BR>Is there something I can do about this? Harrison, how did you resolve<BR>it?<BR><BR> :- Doug.<BR><BR>On Fri, 2009-09-11 at 20:21 -0700, Wendy Farmer-O'Neil wrote:<BR>> Hi Doug,<BR>> <BR>> Just wanted to give you the heads up that when we click reply to you, <BR>> it goes just to your account, not to the list. Same problem Harrison <BR>> had a while back. So we are missing chunks of the conversation.<BR>> <BR>> :) Wendy<BR>> <BR>> On 11-Sep-09, at 6:38 PM, douglas germann wrote:<BR>> <BR>> > Thanks, Becky!<BR>> ><BR>> > :- Doug.<BR>> ><BR>> > On Fri, 2009-09-11 at 22:10 +0100, Becky Bloom wrote:<BR>> >> re: Christopher Alexander.<BR>> >><BR>> >> Congratulations!<BR>> >><BR>> >> -b.<BR>>
>><BR>> >> 2009/9/9 douglas germann <<A href="http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=76066.515@compuserve.com" ymailto="mailto:76066.515@compuserve.com">76066.515@compuserve.com</A>><BR>> >> Becky--<BR>> >><BR>> >> Many thanks.<BR>> >><BR>> >> Yes, I read A Pattern Language probably 10 or 15 years ago.<BR>> >> The set I am<BR>> >> reading now, The Nature of Order, was written 25 to 30 years<BR>> >> later (up<BR>> >> to at least 2002), and offers where Alexander's thought had<BR>> >> progressed<BR>> >> from there. He makes many references to the Eishin campus in<BR>> >>
these<BR>> >> books. I am glad to see more photos of it on that Web page you<BR>> >> linked.<BR>> >> Too bad that the final version of the pattern language is not<BR>> >> available.<BR>> >> I like reading his kind of poetry!<BR>> >><BR>> >> One of the things he distinguishes is a "pattern language"<BR>> >> from a "form<BR>> >> language," and I wonder if what you are referring to in your<BR>> >> x, y, z<BR>> >> wording might be a form language?<BR>> >><BR>> >> I guess I am not sure what a mental rule is, and what examples<BR>>
>> you might<BR>> >> give of mental rules.<BR>> >><BR>> >> Thanks, Becky!<BR>> >><BR>> >> :- Doug.<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> On Tue, 2009-09-08 at 17:28 +0100, Becky Bloom wrote:<BR>> >>> Doug,<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> What really matters are the mental rules that determine 'the<BR>> >> DNA' (the<BR>> >>> enfolded order*) of each physical space, that *would* have<BR>> >> an<BR>> >>> enhancing effect on 'Opening Space' for instance --not a/the<BR>> >> exact<BR>> >>> predetermined
geometry/form of space itself. < Apropos you<BR>> >> may want to<BR>> >>> read A Pattern Language at some point, also by Chris<BR>> >> Alexander (at<BR>> >>> al.) ><BR>> >>><BR>> >>> The same mental rules could generate shapes of different<BR>> >> forms as in<BR>> >>> each case, order does not unfold in void -- its unfolding is<BR>> >> affected<BR>> >>> by 'local' conditions (geography, culture etc).<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> Along the same lines, the enfolded order of each Open Space<BR>> >> event as<BR>> >>> it unflods --differently every time -- affects the existing<BR>> >> structure<BR>> >>> of a space shaped in a x, y, z
way. Then site, space,<BR>> >> participants and<BR>> >>> ideas end up forming a coherent meaningful 'whole'. But this<BR>> >> 'whole'<BR>> >>> would have different physical properties and outcome even if<BR>> >> OS events<BR>> >>> are repeated in the same room and under the same conditions.<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> You may also want to read how the design (site and<BR>> >> buildings) of the<BR>> >>> Eishin School (Japan) affected the knowledge management and<BR>> >> the<BR>> >>> academic performance in that specific student community. You<BR>> >> will be<BR>> >>> able to find some analogies with OS (Unfortunately I<BR>> >>
haven't got any<BR>> >>> links of relevent lit.)<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> Enjoy your reads.<BR>> >>><BR>> >>><BR>> >>> -b.<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> * See David Bohm<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> 2009/9/8 douglas germann <<A href="http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=76066.515@compuserve.com" ymailto="mailto:76066.515@compuserve.com">76066.515@compuserve.com</A>><BR>> >>> Artur--<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> Thank you for helping me think this through.<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> I have been reading further in Christopher Alexander<BR>> >> and find<BR>> >>> myself in<BR>> >>> a chapter where he speaks
of the mass and the space<BR>> >> of a<BR>> >>> building as<BR>> >>> interlocking. This gives me a new light, I think, on<BR>> >> my<BR>> >>> question and on<BR>> >>> your response.<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> What the question asks is subtle but for all that<BR>> >> very real.<BR>> >>> We are<BR>> >>> shaping some space and the circle, the wall, the<BR>> >> law, the<BR>> >>> diversity are<BR>> >>> the things with which we shape that space: they are<BR>>
>> the form,<BR>> >>> the mass.<BR>> >>> But I want to look at the space itself: what is its<BR>> >> shape?<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> This takes a change in perspective, much like an<BR>> >> artist<BR>> >>> looking at the<BR>> >>> negative space that surrounds a maple leaf. We know<BR>> >> the shape<BR>> >>> of the<BR>> >>> circle and the breathing in and breathing out from<BR>> >> small to<BR>> >>> large<BR>> >>> groups; what
shape is that which meets this shape?<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> Here we are probably left to using word pictures,<BR>> >> stories and<BR>> >>> the like.<BR>> >>> I remember someone once using "banter" to describe<BR>> >> one<BR>> >>> characteristic of<BR>> >>> the space we are shaping. What is the shape of the<BR>> >> space we<BR>> >>> are<BR>> >>> touching?<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> :- Doug.<BR>> >>><BR>> >>><BR>>
>>><BR>> >>><BR>> >>> On Sun, 2009-09-06 at 11:22 -0700, Artur Silva<BR>> >> wrote:<BR>> >>>> Hi, Doug:<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> In my opinion, what gives shape to the space are<BR>> >> what I call<BR>> >>> the<BR>> >>>> foundations of OST: the circle, the invitation,<BR>> >> diversity,<BR>> >>> the Law,<BR>> >>>> etc. In fact, we build the garden.<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> The "thing" that the organization or community<BR>> >> desires to<BR>> >>> create is<BR>> >>>> the content, or the building. That is made<BR>> >>
possible by the<BR>> >>> OST design<BR>> >>>> and foundations we have created - the garden, as<BR>> >> you said.<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> Regards<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> Artur<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> PS: For more about OST "foundations" make a search<BR>> >> in the<BR>> >>> OSLIST<BR>> >>>> Archives.<BR>> >>>> --------------<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> --- On Sun, 9/6/09, douglas germann<BR>> >>> <<A href="http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=76066.515@compuserve.com" ymailto="mailto:76066.515@compuserve.com">76066.515@compuserve.com</A>> wrote:<BR>> >>>><BR>>
>>>><BR>> >>>> From: douglas germann<BR>> >> <<A href="http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=76066.515@compuserve.com" ymailto="mailto:76066.515@compuserve.com">76066.515@compuserve.com</A>><BR>> >>>> Subject: [OSLIST] Christopher Alexander &<BR>> >> the space<BR>> >>> we are<BR>> >>>> shaping<BR>> >>>> To: <A href="http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU" ymailto="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</A><BR>> >>>> Date: Sunday, September 6, 2009, 10:20 AM<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>>
Hi--<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> Still reading Christopher Alexander and<BR>> >> finding lots<BR>> >>> of<BR>> >>>> parallels to OS:<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> Most important of all, it was the<BR>> >> space<BR>> >>> (more than the<BR>> >>>> building)<BR>> >>>> which was being formed. That flies<BR>> >> against<BR>> >>>> 20th-century<BR>> >>>> awareness, which places too much<BR>>
>> emphasis on<BR>> >>>> buildings. What<BR>> >>>> mattered about the building is the<BR>> >>> contribution it<BR>> >>>> makes to the<BR>> >>>> formation of shaped, coherent,<BR>> >> public space.<BR>> >>> That was<BR>> >>>> where the<BR>> >>>> inspiration came from, and it was<BR>> >> that—later<BR>> >>> —which<BR>> >>>> made it<BR>> >>>>
possible to make the building<BR>> >> beautiful.<BR>> >>> Christopher<BR>> >>>> Alexander,<BR>> >>>> The Nature of Order: An Essay on<BR>> >> the Art of<BR>> >>> Building<BR>> >>>> and The<BR>> >>>> Nature of the Universe, Book<BR>> >> Three: A Vision<BR>> >>> of a<BR>> >>>> Living World,<BR>> >>>> p 138<BR>> >>>><BR>>
>>>> In another instance, he says that in<BR>> >> designing a<BR>> >>> home, it is<BR>> >>>> best to<BR>> >>>> design the garden first: when that is<BR>> >> placed in the<BR>> >>> most<BR>> >>>> health-giving,<BR>> >>>> nurturing spot, then the house is made<BR>> >> that much<BR>> >>> better, that<BR>> >>>> much more<BR>> >>>> wonderful. Garden first!<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> The question this
raises for me for OS is:<BR>> >> most<BR>> >>> often the<BR>> >>>> communities in<BR>> >>>> which we are opening space want to<BR>> >> accomplish some<BR>> >>> *thing*.<BR>> >>>> This thing<BR>> >>>> is Alexander's building. But he does not<BR>> >> look first<BR>> >>> at the<BR>> >>>> building;<BR>> >>>> rather he tries to shape public<BR>> >> space--give it<BR>> >>> volume, life.<BR>> >>>>
What are we<BR>> >>>> trying to shape when we open space?<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> It is easy for me to throw in a glib "we<BR>> >> simply are<BR>> >>> there to<BR>> >>>> open<BR>> >>>> space," but I think the inquiry needs to<BR>> >> go deeper<BR>> >>> than that.<BR>> >>>> What is<BR>> >>>> the shape of opened space? What makes it<BR>> >> coherent?<BR>> >>> What are<BR>> >>>> the factors<BR>>
>>>> which give it shape?<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> :- Doug.<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> *<BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>><BR>> >>>> * *<BR>> >>><BR>> >> ==========================================================<BR>> >>>> <A href="http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU" ymailto="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</A><BR>> >>> ------------------------------ To<BR>> >>>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view<BR>> >> the<BR>> >>> archives of<BR>> >>>> <A
href="http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu" ymailto="mailto:oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu">oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu</A>:<BR>> >>>><BR>> >> <A href="http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html" target=_blank>http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html</A> To learn<BR>> >>> about<BR>> >>>> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:<BR>> >>>> <A href="http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist" target=_blank>http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist</A><BR>> >>><BR>> >>><BR>> >>> *<BR>> >>> *<BR>> >>><BR>> >> ==========================================================<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> <A
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href="http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist" target=_blank>http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist</A><BR>> >>><BR>> >>><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> ><BR>> > *<BR>> > *<BR>> > ==========================================================<BR>> > <A href="http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU" ymailto="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</A><BR>> > ------------------------------<BR>> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,<BR>> > view the archives of <A href="http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu" ymailto="mailto:oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu">oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu</A>:<BR>> > <A href="http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html" target=_blank>http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html</A><BR>> ><BR>>
> To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:<BR>> > <A href="http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist" target=_blank>http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist</A><BR>> ><BR>> <BR>> Wendy Farmer-O'Neil<BR>> CEO Prospera Consulting<BR>> <A href="http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wendy@xe.net" ymailto="mailto:wendy@xe.net">wendy@xe.net</A><BR>> 1-800-713-2351<BR>> <BR>> The moment of change is the only poem. -- Adrienne Rich<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR><BR>*<BR>*<BR>==========================================================<BR><A href="http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU" ymailto="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</A><BR>------------------------------<BR>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,<BR>view the archives of <A href="http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu"
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