<div dir="ltr"><br>I can't tell you why movements or processes get co-opted but they do including OST. I know about Alinsky from working in the anti-war, freeze and environmental campaigns in the 60's and 70's. I worked inside of the communities that I lived and only went outside that community to work as a support when requested to other campaigns or to blockade trains, boats or trucks carrying nuclear materials. When working with the farm workers it was as support not as planners that happened from inside and when blockading there was always a lot of door knocking in the community to let them what was going to happen and why and inquires into what issues that might pose for community members. I have never read any of Alinsky's work. My knowledge of him and his philosophies is second hand from what I called at the time "Arm chair revolutionaries". I would say now they were probably academics or at least people with a much higher education than I did at the time. At any rate what I know in my head is exactly as Kerry described and my on the ground experience was as I described, we did not have outside experts come in and tell us what the issues were and how to deal with them. We made those assessments ourselves. When trying to stop the building of a nuclear power plant in Missouri at the time I made my home there I do remember bringing in dairy farmer from Harrisburg PA. you remember Harrisburg, to talk to cattle farmers in Missouri about what happened to their stock after they built the plant in Harrisburg. That's as expert witness as it got in my experience. The early superfund sites like Love CAnal and Times Beach were all driven by the community members trying to get on someone's radar screen as their loved ones started to die from the effects. <div>
Pat<br><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 5:07 PM, douglas germann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:76066.515@compuserve.com">76066.515@compuserve.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Pat and Kerry--<br>
<br>
I have read two of Alinsky's books and found them fun and informative. I<br>
like the way both of you describe how Alinsky worked.<br>
<br>
Yet the things I have seen and heard from people who come out of the<br>
Industrial Areas Foundation seem somehow at odds with the picture you<br>
paint. One was a speaker out of Texas who got her issues from the<br>
established leadership of churches and other groups in the community. It<br>
was central to her way of organizing. There was very little said about<br>
involving the rank and file, the grass roots "little" people.<br>
<br>
The second experience I have had is with a local group who do use, I am<br>
told, a lot of interviewing of people to find the issues. But then their<br>
"meetings" are dominated with inviting, say, the school superintendent<br>
to the front of the group, reading a list of demands, and exact his or<br>
her signature to an agreement to meet those demands. Seems a little ways<br>
from self organization if you consider the superintendent to be a member<br>
of the community.<br>
<br>
So can you give me some idea of how the Alinsky model has gone from<br>
coming from "inside the community" to working outside of self<br>
organizing? (Realizing that Alinsky was just a little iconoclastic.)<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
:- Doug.<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
On Tue, 2008-08-12 at 10:53 -0500, Pat Black wrote:<br>
> Pavel<br>
> Obama comes from the Saul Alinsky school of organizing. Alinsky<br>
> worked with the stockyard workers in Chicago in I think the 1930's or<br>
> 1940's. His model is one that believes that change is defined and<br>
> comes from inside the community.<br>
> Many grassroots movements in the United States in the 60's and 70's,<br>
> especially the anti-nuclear movement were modeled after his<br>
> experiences. Clinton also studied Alinsky but unlike Obama who was an<br>
> Alinsky style organizer Clinton believed that you could change the<br>
> system from within its bowels. Obama follows the Alinsky model and<br>
> allows the community itself to form the agenda and provide the<br>
> expertise.<br>
> Pat Black<br>
><br>
> On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 8:32 AM, Pavel Tsarkov <<a href="mailto:ptsarkov@hotmail.com">ptsarkov@hotmail.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> I knew, that it will be the answer, Michael. It is not OS, of<br>
> course. But here they trying to do smth different from others,<br>
> they want to hear people, instead of saying them what to do,<br>
> that s what I m trying to say)). May be someone from US can<br>
> offer to provide OS for this election campaighn.<br>
> We used OS for election campaighns several times in Russia,<br>
> and it was always very usefull...for candidates, for partyes,<br>
> for comunity.<br>
> Thank you.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Yours sincerely,<br>
> Pavel Tsarkov<br>
> Business Open Space Communication Agency<br>
> Managing Director<br>
><br>
> Mob.+7-926-296-62-74<br>
> Website: <a href="http://www.jordantravel.ru" target="_blank">www.jordantravel.ru</a><br>
> Skype: pavel_tsarkov<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:20:10 +0200<br>
> > From: <a href="mailto:mmpanne@boscop.org">mmpanne@boscop.org</a><br>
> > Subject: Re: Barack Obama team using OS. How about that?<br>
> > To: <a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a><br>
> ><br>
> > Dear Pavel,<br>
> > where do you see the Open Space events ?<br>
> > Greetings from Berlin<br>
> > mmp<br>
> ><br>
> > Pavel Tsarkov wrote:<br>
> > > Hi everyone,Just before coming to Russia next day from New<br>
> York, decided to look at Barack Obama web-site. His team using<br>
> OS. Who is facilitator?)))Thats the text from there:<br>
> > > Colorado: Solutions for America<br>
> > > by State NewsMonday, August 11, 2008 at 12:37 AM<br>
> > >>From Jenn Prosser, on the ground in Colorado . . . From<br>
> his days as a community organizer on, Barack has strongly<br>
> believed that the best policies come from the people -- their<br>
> experiences, stories and ideas can shape the most efficient<br>
> solutions for our country. In the spirit of this philosophy,<br>
> the Colorado Campaign for Change has organized a series of<br>
> Solutions for Colorado forums that will be going on across the<br>
> state from now through October.<br>
> > > The first event was in Pueblo, where Rep. John Salazar<br>
> joined National Deputy Policy Director Carlos Monje and<br>
> Colorado Policy Director Joy Silvern to talk about the<br>
> economy.The room was packed with nearly 200 people from Pueblo<br>
> and the surrounding area. Rep. Salazar spoke to the group<br>
> about the economic problems he's seen in the past eight years,<br>
> from the huge rise in diesel costs to the sky-rocketing<br>
> national debt....Link:<br>
> <a href="http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/hqblog#topYours" target="_blank">http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/hqblog#topYours</a><br>
> sincerely,Pavel TsarkovBusiness Open Space Communication<br>
> AgencyManaging DirectorMob.+7-926-296-62-74Website:<br>
> <a href="http://www.jordantravel.ru" target="_blank">www.jordantravel.ru</a> Skype: pavel_tsarkov<br>
> > ><br>
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