<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Sigh,<DIV> Human communities do this for good reason.</DIV><DIV> It works. </DIV><DIV> Everyone is not 'equal' in the sense that we all have different experience and different knowledge. Some people are naturally skilled at holding space and others well they haven't learned it yet. Newbies to a practice, technique or skill and having an arrogance of 'sameness' with practitioners who have been doing it for years. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Some how the 'groovy' green people (in the Spiral Dynamics sense) have this belief their is no expertise, no years of skill development, no level of maturity that comes from doing something a long time and that the respect, knowledge and reputation that someone might have because of this legitimate experience some how 'wreaks of "hierarchy"' and that all hierarchy is BAD. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>There are important issues in our society around the abuse of 'rank' and having power over people because of positional authority that is abused...these are real issues. Robert Fuller has spent a lot of time thinking about this issue and has two books about the subject. <A href="http://www.breakingranks.net">http://www.breakingranks.net</A>/ He does not say that 'rank' and hierarchy are bad he says abuse within this paradigm is bad.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I work a lot in Open Source and Open Standards technical communities. It took me a while to get it but these 'open' communities function on the scale they do because of repetitional meritocratic hierarchy. To read more on the functioning of open source communities read - Open Sources, OPen Sources 2.0 and The Success of Open Source. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Open Space Technology is fundamentally different then these to community practices - it is about taking the agenda away from the 'organizer' how ever the organizer of the event still creates the invitation and invites the people and creates the space that is possible for good things to happen. The Law of two feet is like the right to fork... there are similarities at a philosophical level...at a practical level... OST is not trying to build an operating system or have 100,000 all collaborate on the same thing - it doesn't 'need' the kind of hierarchy that technical communities do.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Having eldership and respect for experience is not a bad thing. If this must be called 'heirarchy' so be it...I think it is legitmate - and perhaps needs a different name.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV> If it means new voices are shut out. Well perhaps some reflection on the culture that makes people think that - perhaps some introspection is needed to address that problem. They are not the same problem. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>=kaliya</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Jul 14, 2007, at 11:07 AM, Raffi Aftandelian wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Greetings friends and colleagues--</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Harrison you wrote:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"The other day I got a note which said in part, "I was surprised to</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">find out that there was a hierarchy in the OST community and everyone having</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">a specific place to hold, voices are not equal and politics prevails in</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">certain circuits<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Just the same old same old... I'm not sure this is what</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">you envisioned with OST." I have no idea what the specific circumstances</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">were, and less interest in finding out. But presuming that we have the</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">creeping tentacles of elitism sneaking in - a good dose of the Law of Two</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Feet and a clear recognition of the Universal License of Open Space</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">(everybody has one by birth) should do the trick. Or something."</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I would love to hear more from the person who wrote about hierarchy in the</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">OST community. What is meant by "hierarchy" here?</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Isn't there hierarchy everywhere? Is it a bad thing? The question is what</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">kind of hierarchy do we have in the OST community? Is it a hierarchy that</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">feeds us, strengthens us? And how do we choose to engage with it as a</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">community? Do we create the spaces to talk about the power differentials</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">within our practitioner community in a way that, well, builds more capacity</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">within us?</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Quakers, for example, acknowledge that voices are not equal within the life</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">of a Monthly Meeting. They have the concept of "weightiness" or a "weighty</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Friend."<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>In other words, these are the elders within the Quaker world.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">And doesn't the OST world have its elders and sages?</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I, too, have heard (and thought) that the OST community is the "same</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">old...," - heck, some of that "same oldness" shows up on the list from time</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to time- *and* I do not know of a more generous, welcoming, inspiring</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">facilitation community. We either choose to engage with the OST community as</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">it is, or...well exercise the law of two feet.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Raffi</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">*</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">*</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">==========================================================</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">------------------------------</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">view the archives of <A href="mailto:oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu">oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu</A>:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html">http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist">http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>Kaliya - Identity Woman</DIV><DIV><A href="mailto:kaliya@mac.com">kaliya@mac.com</A></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><A href="http://www.unconference.net">http://www.unconference.net</A></DIV><DIV><A href="http://www.identitywoman.net">http://www.identitywoman.net</A></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><A href="skype:identitywoman">skype:identitywoman</A></DIV><DIV>Y!:earthwaters</DIV><DIV><A href="AIM:kaliya@mac.com">AIM:kaliya@mac.com</A></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>510 472-9069 (bay area)</DIV><DIV>415 425 1136 (on the road)</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>*
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