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<font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font face="Geneva">Paul,<br>
<br>
</font></font></font>I'm a little concerned about the attacking voice
of this posting. Especially from one that appears to be a voice that is
listened to on this list. I'm
also concerned about the making forceful shutdown statements as if they
were fact when they are simply opinion. There is a significant body of
"knowledge" and scientific community that sees things quite
differently. I have included some snippets below to highlight this but
there is much, much more available. (most of the best (from a
scientific standpoint) material I have only seen in print and therefore
it is harder to post it. But I have seen hardcore science papers that
substantiate what i have placed below. <br>
<br>
As a friend of mine who is an emergency room surgeon recently reminded
me, it is a commonly
accepted "fact" that the vast majority of the decrease in mortality
that occurred from the late 1800s to date is actually the result,
primarily of improvements in hygiene and water/sewage treatment.
Further, there is a strong body of research that seriously throws into
question the efficacy (and even safety) of the vaccination program. The
graphs below are for Australia but i have seen similar ones for North
America as well.<br>
<br>
Further the statement: "<font face="arial,helvetica"><font
family="SANSSERIF" color="#000000" face="Geneva" size="2">ONE THIRD of
all women who
delivered babies in the hospitals of the time died of "childbirth
fever". Think about that FACT." Is a profound one. And the statement
is probably accurate. However, consider that nowhere near 1/3 of all
childbirths ended in the death of the mother. That rate was only that
high in the early hospital births. </font></font><br>
<br>
As for advocating the use of DDT, to take such a stand in the face of
truly overwhelming evidence of the dangers absolutely baffles me.<br>
<br>
On a completely different note: <br>
<br>
The statement "<font face="arial,helvetica"><font family="SANSSERIF"
color="#000000" face="Geneva" size="2">It has side issues, but
compared to human life, they
are side issues." clearly implies a belief that human life is more
valuable than the survival of the Earth's biosphere. I would offer the
exercise to all, to consider the validity of that viewpoint. The Earth
will continue just fine in lush, vibrant life, without humans. The
reverse is not true.<br>
<br>
And a final consideration:<br>
<br>
We are now facing overwhelming overpopulation on a worldwide scale,
with the population continuing to grow at an alarming (and increasing)
rate. Much of this is due to the decline in mortality rates. While i am
very affected by human suffering and death, i must question whether it
is actually a boon to humankind to have such runaway growth. Certainly
in animal populations such unchecked growth results in decline and
sometimes extinction of a species as the resources it relies on
disappear.<br>
<br>
I'm not stating hard opinions but rather raising questions to consider.
In fact, i wouldn't be alive myself without modern medicine as i was
the 2nd Rh+ child of an Rh- mother and would have died without a
transfusion.<br>
<br>
duff<br>
</font></font><br>
-----<br>
<br>
"The mortality decline since the late nineteenth century seems to have
been the result particularly of improvements in public health and
sanitation, especially better water supplies and sewage disposal. The
improving diet, clothing, and shelter of the American population over
the period since about 1870 also played a role. Specific medical
interventions beyond more general environmental public health measures
were not statistically important until well into the twentieth century.
It is difficult to disentangle the separate effects of these factors.
But it is clear that much of the decline was due to rapid reductions in
specific infectious and parasitic diseases, including tuberculosis,
pneumonia, bronchitis, and gastrointestinal infections, as well as such
well-known lethal diseases as cholera, smallpox, diphtheria, and
typhoid fever. Nineteenth-century cities were especially unhealthy
places, particularly the largest ones. This began to change by about
the 1890s, when the largest cities instituted new public works
sanitation projects (such as piped water, sewer systems, filtration and
chlorination of water) and public health administration. They then
experienced rapid improvements in death rates. As for the present,
rural-urban mortality differentials have converged and largely
disappeared. This, unfortunately, is not true of the differentials
between whites and blacks."<br>
Maris A. Vinovskis, ed., <em>Studies in American Historical Demography</em>
(1979); Robert V. Wells, <em>Uncle Sam's Family: Issues in and
Perspectives on American Demographic History</em> (1985). from: <span
class="resourceheader">The Reader's Companion to American History
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_009700_birthrateand.htm">http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_009700_birthrateand.htm</a><br>
<br>
</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/index.htm">http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/index.htm</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html">http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html</a>
(graphs of decline of
illness)<br>
<br>
<p align="center"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size="3"><b>GRAPHICAL
EVIDENCE SHOWS VACCINES DIDN'T SAVE US</b></font></p>
<p align="center"> </p>
<div align="center">
<table border="1" width="75%">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><img
src="cid:part1.01030404.01040008@innergy.ca" height="226" width="300"></font></td>
<td><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><img
src="cid:part2.08070709.04090003@innergy.ca" height="221" width="300"></font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><img
src="cid:part3.00070408.09050607@innergy.ca" height="216" width="300"></font></td>
<td><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><img
src="cid:part4.09020308.02000705@innergy.ca" height="196" width="300"></font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><img
src="cid:part5.03030208.01030504@innergy.ca" height="207" width="300"></font></td>
<td><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><img
src="cid:part6.04000909.05010107@innergy.ca" height="196" width="300"></font></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size="4">The above
graphs, based on the official death numbers as recorded in the Official
Year Books of the Commonwealth of Australia, are taken from Greg
Beattie's excellent book <i>"<a
href="http://www.informedparent.co.uk/books_and_videos.html">Vaccination
A Parent's Dilemma</a>"</i> and represent the decline in death rates
from infectious disease in Australia. They clearly show that vaccines
had nothing to do with the decline in death rates. (Note: Graphical
evidence on the decline in death rates from infectious disease for USA,
England, New Zealand and many other countries shows the exact same
scenario as above).</font></p>
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.whale.to/vaccines.html">http://www.whale.to/vaccines.html</a><br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.relfe.com/vaccine.html">http://www.relfe.com/vaccine.html</a><br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.nccn.net/%7Ewwithin/vaccine.htm">http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm</a><br>
<br>
--------------------<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:EVERETT813@aol.com">EVERETT813@aol.com</a>
wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid1db.41b6be74.30322f9b@aol.com" type="cite"><font
face="arial,helvetica"><font family="SANSSERIF" color="#000000"
face="Geneva" size="2"><br>
In a message dated 8/15/05 9:03:24 AM, <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:filiztelek@yahoo.com">filiztelek@yahoo.com</a>
writes:<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></font>
<blockquote cite=""
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px;"
type="CITE"><font face="arial,helvetica"><font family="SANSSERIF"
color="#000000" face="Geneva" size="2">I once read somewhere that body
does the most of the healing process itself...all those medicine we
take has just such a little role to activate certain actions,
chemicals, interactions to happen in the body. but eventually the body
heals itself...what a fascinating thought!<br>
</font></font></blockquote>
<font face="arial,helvetica"><font family="SANSSERIF" color="#000000"
face="Geneva" size="2"><br>
<br>
Filiz:<br>
<br>
Well, you haven't lived when there were none of those drugs and the
body didn't heal itself. You never had to not go swimming in the
summer because of the wild polio virus living in the water could make
you sick or kill you or paralyze you for life. An iron lung is no
place to live. Leg braces are no fun. Joelle experienced that. <br>
<br>
You never saw a child die from coughing (Whooping cough) or from a
staph or strep infection that ran wild in the body which wasn't healing
itself. Before simple forms of cleanliness, ONE THIRD of all women who
delivered babies in the hospitals of the time died of "childbirth
fever". Think about that FACT. <br>
<br>
People forget really fast that we are healthy because of those drugs
and practices that have saved millions of lives and allowed people to
remain healthy. <br>
<br>
That's one of my 'hot buttons', the idea that modern medicine doesn't
prevent disease, that the body does all the healing, etc. It's all
baloney. Life is immeasureably better now because of vaccinations,
immunizations, drugs, etc. Immeasureably better here where we are safe
from the malarial mosquito but we refuse to allow the rest of the
impoverished world to use a marvelous mosquito killer called DDT. We
think it is better for people to die, or be horribly sick, than to use,
effectively and carefully, a chemical that has been proven to work
very, very well. It has side issues, but compared to human life, they
are side issues. Silent Spring was a cannon blasting a brush covered
machine gun nest, total overkill that has negatively affected the lives
of tens of millions of people.<br>
<br>
Now, I'm almost off my soap box.<br>
<br>
Be well and be thankful for medical science.<br>
<br>
Paul</font>*
*
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>From Tue Aug 16 11:00:24 2005
Message-Id: <TUE.16.AUG.2005.110024.0700.>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:00:24 -0700
Reply-To: chris@chriscorrigan.com
To: OSLIST <OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Chris Corrigan <chris.corrigan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: First open space in a Camp of Naturalists?
In-Reply-To: <E1E52Ep-000699-Vy@sour.visp.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On 8/16/05, Pannwitz, Michael M <mmpanne@boscop.de> wrote:
>=20
> Dear colleagues,
> following the report by Catherine Pfaehler from Switzerland of perhaps th=
e=20
> first Open Space Technology event in a camp of naturalists.
>=20
You had me there for a second! In English, the word "naturalist" means=20
someone who makes a study of nature. "nudists" are called "naturists," a=20
subtle but important difference (especially to shy naturalists!)
Having worked with naturalists in Open Space I was surprised to see the=20
message header, but once I got past that I was even more astonished! Talk=
=20
about one less thing to do - get dressed. I wonder if even Harrison would=
=20
strip his practice down to such bare bones!
At any rate, congratulations to Catherine on a great event.
Chris
--=20
CHRIS CORRIGAN
Consultation - Facilitation
Open Space Technology
Weblog: http://www.chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot
Site: http://www.chriscorrigan.com
*
*
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 8/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_send=
ername">Pannwitz, Michael M</b> <<a href=3D"mailto:mmpanne@boscop.de">mm=
panne@boscop.de</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; =
padding-left: 1ex;">
<font face=3D"Times New Roman"><font size=3D"3">Dear colleagues,<br>
following the report by Catherine Pfaehler from Switzerland of perhaps
the first Open Space Technology event in a camp of naturalists.<br></font><=
/font></blockquote></div><br>
You had me there for a second! In English, the word "naturalist&=
quot;
means someone who makes a study of nature. "nudists" are ca=
lled
"naturists," a subtle but important difference (especially to shy
naturalists!)<br>
<br>
Having worked with naturalists in Open Space I was surprised to see the
message header, but once I got past that I was even more
astonished! Talk about one less thing to do - get dressed.
I wonder if even Harrison would strip his practice down to such bare
bones!<br>
<br>
At any rate, congratulations to Catherine on a great event.<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
-- <br><br>CHRIS CORRIGAN<br>Consultation - Facilitation<br>Open Space Tech=
nology<br><br>Weblog: <a href=3D"http://www.chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot">h=
ttp://www.chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot</a><br>Site: <a href=3D"http://www.c=
hriscorrigan.com">
http://www.chriscorrigan.com</a>
*
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