<DIV>Funda, </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>yes, indeed OS can be compared to a drug but it is a natural one that activates the already existing qualities, immune system, power, energy, whatever you call it...as Michael wrote, it's already there, OS just activates it...there is an inherent trust in the inherent qualities of people. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>so in that sense OS can be seen as homepathic medicine whereas there are other interventions than can be seen like allopathic medicine...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I once read somewhere that body does the most of the healing process itself...all those medicine we take has just such a little role to activate certain actions, chemicals, interactions to happen in the body. but eventually the body heals itself...what a fascinating thought! </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>filiz</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Funda Oral <fundaoral@ttnet.net.tr></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT color=#000000>First i want to say that i am very grateful to have met you on this list, being able to read about your stories...and i agree with</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT color=#000000>most of your ideas.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I couldn't come to some conclusion but with some questions.</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT color=#000000> </FONT></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Filiz says</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>"OS is the most powerful empowerment medicine I've ever seen...:) "</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>can OST be compared to drugs in this sense?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Michael answers to Filiz :</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>With the addition of me stepping aside and selforganization doing its magic<BR>people did what they already were capable of.<BR>They are empowered.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial size=2>Why anybody would need to be empowered...don't we have enough power to live when we are born?</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Chris Kloth is talking about "healing the world"</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Can't we leave to future generations a world that does not need to be healed?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't remember exactly was it Chris Corrigan who wrote "we probably came to life to struggle"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I doubt that...my 6th sense says that all of us; we came to enjoy, have fun, love, laugh<EM>....</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>we should have been given equal opportunity for that <EM>(this has been a belief not a question)</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT color=#000000>Harrison writes:</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"But then the question arisies where and how do I make the maximum impact? I don't think there is any easy or "right" answer to this But then the question arisies where and how do I make the maximum impact? I don't think there is any easy or "right" answer to this "</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>no, in fact, i could not find an answer to that for myself...but over the years where i am now i don't want to do anything which will cause</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>any harm to anybody (including myself). The question i ask myself how do i make zero harm..the rest is not so important. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>My story also includes ups and downs, surprises, questions and struggle to understand, to exist and to go on...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I learned many things at every challenges and maybe i am growing up (better to think like that::)) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I am more lucky from many people having my laptop, food, time, health,home, family, friends, space to think, to reflect and to write</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>you, speak in english...i can still enjoy life although my mind gets confused seeing where life can go.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>And i wish nobody has to struggle for anything, has to face any but any slightest difficulty in this life adventure.... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial size=2>Funda </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2> </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fundaoral@ttnet.net.tr href="mailto:fundaoral@ttnet.net.tr">Funda Oral</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 15, 2005 7:50 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Open Space - a minimum?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Harrison, Michael, Chris and Filiz..thank you for sharing your experiences, choices and thoughts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I read yr messages and will probably reread them........many thoughts are fighting in my head now</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>...i want to write something later when i come to a conclusion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mmpanne@boscop.de href="mailto:mmpanne@boscop.de">Pannwitz, Michael M</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE..EDU</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 14, 2005 10:26 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Open Space - a minimum?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" DEFAULT="FACE"><FONT size=3 DEFAULT="SIZE" POINTSIZE="12">Dear Filiz,<BR>reflecting on my experience in more than 100 os events I facilitated<BR>I dont recall running into "indifference, powerlessness or isolation"<BR>but being with people that were coming from "abundance, action and responsibilty".<BR>(plenty of them pretty mad, upset, full of stuff they needed to get rid of, ready to fight or to go into conflict and thirsting for allies to do their stuff).<BR>And that appeared to be a good basis for getting things going.<BR>With the addition of me stepping aside and selforganization doing its magic<BR>people did what they already were capable of.<BR>They are empowered.<BR>Greetings from Berlin<BR>mmp<BR><BR>--Original Message Text---<BR><B>From:</B> Filiz Telek<BR><B>Date:</B> Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:27:40 -0700<BR><BR>as I mentioned at OSonOS, and as I always say, for me the power of OS is to shift the mindset from one of 'indifference,
powerlessness, isolation' to 'abundance, action, responsibility'<BR>which is absolutely fundamental for authentic, grassroots, effective social change <BR><BR>OS is the most powerful empowerment medicine I've ever seen...:) <BR><BR>filiz<BR><BR><BR><B><I>"Pannwitz, Michael M" <mmpanne@boscop.de></B></I> wrote:<BR>Dear Funda,<BR>I live in a rich city: Berlin.<BR>My colleagues and I have facilitated about 300 os-events since 1996<BR>in this city alone.<BR>The dark sides of this city have in that same period grown:<BR>unemployment, poverty, homelessness, dismanteling of social services,<BR>cuts in primary education and health care, disentchantment with the<BR>political process....along with the widening gap between poor -<BR>middle income and rich people.<BR>So, whats all this effort led to?<BR>Heaven knows<BR>and<BR>almost every day I get little signs<BR>someone approaching me in a bus, on the street, an email, a telephone<BR>call, <BR>characterized by a smile.<BR>As far as I am
concerned, thats pretty much all I need to keep going.<BR>A few days ago I returned from Karachi, Pakistan,<BR>somewhere between 14 and 19 million people,<BR>where Yaari and I lead a training for 26 colleagues from Afghanistan,<BR>Nepal, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.<BR>There, I saw grand opportunities for open space and talked about it<BR>to people.<BR>That environment with its many challenges invigorated me,<BR>especially those thousands of people I saw while going to the<BR>railroad station, the harbor, the markets, along teeming streets...<BR>all of them, including the tenacious begging children, rising to the<BR>really difficult situation making a go of things,<BR>seemingly at a very high level of "muddling through".<BR>What splendid resources!<BR>And: I dont need to understand their struggle to facilitate an open<BR>space technology event.<BR>And: I am certainly not going to help them to get what they need not<BR>really knowing or being able to understand their need.<BR>Neither in
Berlin or in Karachi.<BR>What I can supply, is assistance in getting an os-event set up and to<BR>facilitate it (or, in the case of Karachi, train people to do that)<BR>which will definitely provide the best known framework for<BR>selforganization including the optimal use of whatever resources are<BR>available.<BR><BR>While I was in Karachi, I read the "Dawn" every morning (in fact,<BR>there is hardly a dawn or dusk in Karachi, it seems to go from light<BR>to dark to light within minutes)<BR>and a story about "Karachi 2020" caught my eye.<BR>It described in great detail all the stuff a huge staff of<BR>consultants (foreign) was hired for to "understand" the problem,<BR>about 20 fields of investigation, half a newspaper page full (census,<BR>roads, income distribution, migration patterns.....)<BR>with side remarks about the government scolding the local planners<BR>for not being competent to develope proper plans.<BR>I read it all and at the very end I found a note that after the
plans<BR>would all be drawn up,<BR>citizens would be invited to explain the plans to them,<BR>with the possibility to then fine tune them.<BR><BR>Well, what a neglect of local resources!<BR>What an upside down procedure, producing another set of eventually<BR>useless data under the ill fatet belief that this kind of planning<BR>will actually improve Karachi.<BR>Lots of room for open space, though.<BR>Maybe some of my colleagues will get busy on those and other areas<BR>there.<BR><BR>Greetings from Berlin<BR>mmp<BR><BR><BR><BR>On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:40:56 +0300, Funda Oral wrote:<BR><BR>>Dear John and everybody,<BR>><BR>>I live in a city where one can see extreme cases ( richness and poorness, <BR>>joy and powerty so on...)<BR>>in a short distance from each other.<BR>><BR>>One sees so big problems, and so strong struggle for life<BR>>that sometime the word "open space" looks funny, silly and luxury.<BR>><BR>>I still believe that "opening space", inviting
people to<BR>>exist, to talk, to express their needs and struggle is<BR>>"something", a very small step maybe, but still helpful.<BR>><BR>>But it's not enough, the ultimate aim is to understand their straggle<BR>>and help them to get what they need...we don't need to be poor with the <BR>>poor;<BR>>sick with the sick ( as Judi beautifully mentions)...the least we can do<BR>>is to open space to respect them.... but this is only the minimum.<BR>><BR>>And i am very worried and sad to see that in many cases all i could<BR>>do would be to open space. I am not strong or rich enough to end<BR>>struggle.<BR>><BR>>I guess we need more trembling hearts, more resources and better<BR>>cooperation for that.<BR>><BR>>Funda<BR>><BR>><BR>>----- Original Message ----- <BR>>From: "john engle" <BR>>To: <BR>>Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:17 PM<BR>>Subject: powerful poem! help me understand it.<BR>><BR>><BR>>> hi
brendan, kairi and others.<BR>>><BR>>> i've never opened space in a prison but i have participated in a <BR>>> touchstones discussion (http://touchstones.org) with about 25 men serving <BR>>> life sentences. the discussion centered around "power" and not <BR>>> surprisingly, i learned a great deal.<BR>>><BR>>> great that you are doing this! i look forward to following developments as <BR>>> you work toward opening space in prisons.<BR>>><BR>>> on another subject, kairi, thank you for sharing that poem in your <BR>>> message. i love it! and, i loved being at OSonOS! Judi, you and your team <BR>>> did a great job at receiving us and making us feel at home.<BR>>><BR>>> while i love the spirit of the poem, i just don't know what to do with <BR>>> "banish the word struggle from your vocabulary." how do others see this?<BR>>><BR>>> removing the word struggle from MY vocabulary seems like
it could have <BR>>> some positive outcomes. at the same time, it's hard for me to think of a <BR>>> better word that describes daily life for so many people. and, not <BR>>> acknowledging this seems like i might be missing something as i work with <BR>>> folks in circumstances so much different from my own.<BR>>><BR>>> i'm in haiti as i write and catching up with friends and colleagues. there <BR>>> are at least hundreds of thousands of people here--some estimate in the <BR>>> millions--that don't consume a meal each day. and when they do, they don't <BR>>> know when they'll eat next. i can't begin to imagine what living with so <BR>>> much uncertainty and discomfort must be like. and i've also learned that <BR>>> far too often we who live in financially prosperous countries romance <BR>>> poverty, saying that poor people are happier.<BR>>><BR>>> it serves us (people who live in financially
prosperous countries) well to <BR>>> see things this way and it pains me when i have US American visitors with <BR>>> me in Haiti and conclude after a week here that the people are "so happy." <BR>>> in many cultures, those in the southern countries included, it is <BR>>> appropriate to put one's best face forward especially when meeting <BR>>> visitors. those same Haitians who looked so happy to the visitor might be <BR>>> totally stressed out because they're worrying about how they're going to <BR>>> pay school fees for their kids and get a meal together, etc. when they <BR>>> speak in their own language to me, "struggle" projects from their facial <BR>>> expressions, body movement and words.<BR>>><BR>>> i would not feel comfortable asking folks who live such realities to <BR>>> remove "struggle" from their vocabulary.<BR>>><BR>>> thanks for your patience as i vent and live emotions connected to
being <BR>>> with friends in extremely difficult situations.<BR>>><BR>>> john<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> http://JohnEngle.net<BR>>> email: john@johnengle.net<BR>>> P.O. Box 337<BR>>> Hershey, Pennsylvania 17033<BR>>> tel. 202-236-6532<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>>From: Brendan McKeague <BR>>>>Reply-To: OSLIST <BR>>>>To: OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<BR>>>>Subject: Re: There is a river flowing now very fast<BR>>>>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:26:54 +0800<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>"Banish the word 'struggle' from your attitude and your vocabulary.<BR>>>>All that we do now must be done in a sacred manner and in celebration.<BR>>>>aahhh....thank you so much Kairi<BR>>>><BR>>>>What a moment to receive this gift - the start of a brand new <BR>>>>day...beautiful and inspiring...today I will let go a wee bit
more...<BR>>>>I am about to depart for a day's 'space-making' in a maximum security <BR>>>>prison with long-term offenders..<BR>>>>I will be present and holding space with individual men - my dream is that <BR>>>>one day there may be more collective open space within such confinement...<BR>>>>.<BR>>>>Anyone ever opened space in a prison?<BR>>>><BR>>>>peace to all<BR>>>>Brendan<BR>>>><BR>>>>*<BR>>>>*<BR>>>>==========================================================<BR>>>>OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<BR>>>>------------------------------<BR>>>>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,<BR>>>>view the archives of oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu:<BR>>>>http://listserv.boisestate..edu/archives/oslist.html<BR>>>><BR>>>>To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST
FAQs:<BR>>>>http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist<BR>>><BR>>> _________________________________________________________________<BR>>> MSN Messenger : discutez en direct avec vos amis ! <BR>>> http://www.msn.fr/msger/default.asp<BR>>><BR>>> *<BR>>> *<BR>>> ==========================================================<BR>>> OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<BR>>> ------------------------------<BR>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,<BR>>> view the archives of oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu:<BR>>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<BR>>><BR>>> To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:<BR>>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist <BR>><BR>>*<BR>>*<BR>>==========================================================<BR>>OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<BR>>------------------------------<BR>>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your
options,<BR>>view the archives of oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu:<BR>>http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<BR>><BR>>To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:<BR>>http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist<BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Michael M Pannwitz, boscop eg<BR>Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany<BR>++49-30-772 8000<BR>www.boscop.de www.michaelmpannwitz.de<BR><BR>Check out the new Open Space World Map now with 309 resident Open Space Workers in 57 countries (working in a total of 115 countries worldwide)<BR>www.openspaceworldmap.org<BR><BR>*<BR>*<BR>==========================================================<BR>OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<BR>------------------------------<BR>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,<BR>view the archives of oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu:<BR>http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<BR><BR>To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST
FAQs:<BR>http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><FONT color=#7f007f><B><I><FONT face="arial narrow">f i l i z</B></I><BR><BR><U>www.barakam.blogspot.com</U> <BR><BR><I>"come out of the circle of time, </I><BR><I>step into the circle of love"</I><BR><I>Rumi</I><BR><BR><BR><FONT color=#0000ff><U>Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page <FONT color=#7f007f></U>* * ========================================================== OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist <BR><BR><LEFT><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000001 size=3 DEFAULT="ALL"
POINTSIZE="12"><BR><BR><BR><BR>Michael M Pannwitz, boscop eg<BR>Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany<BR>++49-30-772 8000<BR>www.boscop.de www.michaelmpannwitz..de<BR><BR>Check out the new Open Space World Map now with 309 resident Open Space Workers in 57 countries (working in a total of 115 countries worldwide)<BR>www.openspaceworldmap.org * * ========================================================== OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist </FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>* *
========================================================== OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><DIV><FONT face="arial narrow" color=#7f007f size=3><EM><STRONG>f i l i z</STRONG></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT color=#7f007f></FONT></EM></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.barakam.blogspot.com"><FONT color=#7f007f>www.barakam.blogspot.com</FONT></A><FONT color=#7f007f> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=#7f007f></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=#7f007f>"come out of the circle of time, </FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=#7f007f>step into the circle of love"</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=#7f007f>Rumi</FONT></EM></DIV><p>
<hr size=1> <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=34442/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs">Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page </a>
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