<html>
<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)">
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{margin-right:0in;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.Style1, li.Style1, div.Style1
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.style10, li.style10, div.style10
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.style100, li.style100, div.style100
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.emailstyle19
{font-family:Arial;
color:red;
font-weight:normal;
font-style:normal;
text-decoration:none none;}
span.emailstyle21
{font-family:Arial;
color:red;
font-weight:normal;
font-style:normal;
text-decoration:none none;}
span.EmailStyle23
{font-family:Arial;
color:red;
font-weight:normal;
font-style:normal;
text-decoration:none none;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>Artur Wrote: “</span></font>I think
we are seeing reality from two different points of view (it is the same
reality...).”</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Precisely! If I may put some words in your
mouth – I would guess that you feel that the various acts of the several
players establish the organizational context. They organize, they set
procedure, they out line protocols – they essentially create the
organization. Although it may also be true that there are also elements of self
organization. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>I find myself looking at precisely the same
organizational reality and coming to a different conclusion. I feel that the
organizational context is fundamentally established by the powers of self
organization, although it may be true that certain individuals and groups make
every effort to organize, establish procedures, outline protocols, and manage
the result. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>I suppose someday you could
“prove” which view is correct, but that day may be a long time in
coming. In the interim I think we are left with an interesting situation in
which proof is not possible, and so we are at liberty to look at things either
way depending on what makes the most sense to us. Tradition is certainly on
your side, and for sure the majority of people in organizations of all sorts
would agree with you.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Personally I have found myself becoming
increasingly uncomfortable with the traditional view. Perhaps it is the
anarchist or revolutionary in me, but I honestly feel it goes deeper than that.
For me the critical points of discomfort appear in the anomalies I perceive.
Tradition says that organizations are created by some individual or group
sitting down to design the mechanisms and then implementing them in time and
space. However, whenever I have attempted to do a careful natural history of
how things actually occurred – I have found that what is said and what
happened are at some critical variance. We say there was a nice, linear,
sequential process. But upon closer inspection it appears (at least to me) that
the clean linearity, to say nothing of rational process was imposed after the
fact. In the moment it was pretty much of a mess – which was
“cleaned up” when the story was told. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>And “mess” of course is the word
we use to describe a situation that is out of control, is not following the
plan. “Mess” is also the way many people have used to describe the
generative situation for a self-organizing system. Another word would be chaos.
</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>So – two ways of looking at things.
And the way I have chosen, almost reluctantly, just makes more sense to me. I
say reluctantly because it did not happen over night, and it certainly has
gotten me in a world of trouble, misunderstanding and marginalization with many
of my colleagues and friends. Frankly it would be a lot easier if I could just
go along with the traditional view.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>When I say “it makes more sense”
I have a number of specifics in mind. With reference to this particular
community and Open Space Technology, I long ago came to the awareness that if the
Traditional view was correct, Open Space, as we all have experienced it, simply
could not happen. Everybody “knows” that inviting a large group of
antagonistic people to solve a complex issue without the benefit of pre-planned
agenda, an army of facilitators managing a carefully controlled process was
insanity. And yet this is an “insanity” we all have experienced on
countless occasions. Worse yet – it works. And it shouldn’t, But it
does. So I asked my self – What view of reality would allow for Open Space?
And the answer that came (as everybody here on OSLIST knows ad nauseam) was
– the primacy of self-organization. In a world viewed as a totally, all
levels, all sectors, all scales self-organizing system – what happens in
Open Space is predictable. In a world understood as the mainline organizational
tradition would under stand it – Open Space is impossible. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>But – one might reasonably ask –
is it legitimate to extrapolate from this funny Open Space experience to the
larger world of “traditional” organizations? I think so, and that
has been the adventure to date. And it certainly makes sense to me. But others
will think differently, which makes for a good conversation.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Harrison</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Harrison Owen</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>7808 River Falls Drive</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Potomac</span></font><font size=2 color=red face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>, </span></font><font
size=2 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Maryland</span></font><font size=2 color=red face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>20845</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Phone 301-365-2093</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'></X-SIGSEP><font
size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:red'><!--StartFragment --><X-SIGSEP>Open Space Training <a
href="http://www.openspaceworld.com/" eudora=autourl>www.openspaceworld.com</a>
</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Open
Space Institute <a href="http://www.openspaceworld.org" eudora=autourl>www.openspaceworld.org</a></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Personal
website <a href="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm"
eudora=autourl>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm</a></span></font><font
color=blue><span style='color:blue'><br>
<a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a></span></font><font
color=red><span style='color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-align:center'><font
size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:red'>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the
archives Visit: <a
href="http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html" eudora=autourl>http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html</a></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> OSLIST
[mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Artur Silva<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Wednesday,
March 16, 2005</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>6:38 PM</span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: NO Such Thing as
non-self-organizing system</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>A very short comment in another 10 minutes, </span></font>Harrison.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I think we are seeing reality from two different
points of view (it it is the same reality...). If I understand well, you are
too much concerned with bosses that think they are in charge. I don't
think that those "in charge" control organizations.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I am thinking more of something similar to the
"invisible hand" - rules, regulations, assumptions taken for granted,
etc that condition you, myself, and all the other humans. We don't act like
quarks and quasars, and the same rules don't necesseraly apply..</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I insist that reading Argyris (in Action Science)
is very conveniente. He shows how, in organizations, a Model 1 of behaviour is always
present, and that it closes the space as it closes communication.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The merite of Open Space IMHO is that it reduces or
supresses Model 1 and enhances Model 2.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>But that would need a very big explanation that
I have not the time now to give.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>But, don't worry - some day YOU will see the light ;-)</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Warm regards</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Artur <br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Harrison Owen
<hhowen@comcast.net></span></i></b> wrote:</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 3.0pt;
margin-left:2.5pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>Artur Wrote:</span></font>
“This allows me to say that I agree with you (except perhaps in your mantra,
because I still think that there are some organizations - like the Catholic
Church and most armies, some companies and even countries - that have a
lot of success in acting as closed systems - even if there are also open
processes happening in them.”</p>
</blockquote>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
<a
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/mobile/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo">Take
Yahoo! Mail with you!</a> Get it on your mobile phone. * *
==========================================================
OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To subscribe,
unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist</span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist@listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist