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<DIV><SPAN class=812423117-16032005><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800080> Hear! Hear! </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=812423117-16032005><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=812423117-16032005><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080>For me the
image of the people in the Ukraine with their orange scarves against the bleak
backdrop of the urban landscape standing peacefully, for days and weeks,
united in their resolve and their desire for their voices to be heard is
implanted in my brain and heart. That image that fills me with
joy and hope and love of humanity. Nothing to do with the politicians
wheeling and dealing and taking ownership with their grand
posturing - that brings out a whole lot of very different
emotions. We are currently witnessing the power of people and their
capacity to self-organize on all fronts - a dissatisfaction with what
exists seems to tap into that innate capacity, in most instances. Need to
give that more thought.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=812423117-16032005><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=812423117-16032005><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800080>Robyn</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=812423117-16032005><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=812423117-16032005><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=812423117-16032005><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=812423117-16032005><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> OSLIST
[mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Harrison
Owen<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 16, 2005 10:31 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<BR><B>Subject:</B> NO Such Thing as
non-self-organizing system<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Artur
Wrote:</SPAN></FONT> “This allows me to say that I agree with you (except
perhaps in your mantra, because I still think that there are some
organizations - like the Catholic Church and most armies, some companies and
even countries - that have a lot of success in acting as closed systems -
even if there are also open processes happening in them.”</P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red">Oh Artur – When will you see the Light?
Perceive the truth? Come to genuine enlightenment? How can you doubt my
words?? And of course, if you didn’t (doubt) you wouldn’t be Artur, and I
would loose a treasured colleague and friend!</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red">So – they aren’t self-organizing???
Somehow these folks just managed to escape a major force and principle
in the cosmos that apparently dominates just about everything else from quarks
to quasars. But it could be true. And maybe they have really pulled it off. I
have no question that all the guilty parties named have done their very best
to maintain control. And for sure, all their press releases say they are in
charge. The “leaders” pound their chests, and the followers acquiesce – if
only to avoid the awful possibility that they (the followers) might have some
responsibility – which they clearly don’t if somebody else is in charge. And
God forbid they might actually have responsibility. That would mean giving up
bitching rights. How on earth are you going to complain about all the awful
things “they” did if you are they?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red">Not a doubt about it – they all put up a
good front. Their act is almost believable, particularly for people who want
(need) to believe it. The Emperor keeps his cloths on, and that nasty little
boy has yet to whisper his words of wisdom (“The old fellow is buck
naked!”).</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red">Having spent no small amount of time
within the Catholic Church (not to mention other churches), Armies of various
sorts, and more companies than I care to remember – I have no question that
the rhetoric is as you state. But seen from the inside, my impression is that
the reality is markedly different. In the Catholic Church, you have only to
listen to the multiple persons and parties seeking fitness for themselves and
in relationship to the whole. The religious (nuns), for example working below
the radar screen doing what they think is right and offering ex post facto
justification if possible, and apologies if necessary. Watch an army in the
field and ask who is in charge. More often than not it is a 2<SUP>nd</SUP>
lieutenant, sergeant or more often a corporal out on “point.” And when it
comes to the companies – don’t forget Lucy out there in Accounting. Totally
off the organization chart. Not an ounce of authority – but if you want to get
something done, you know who to talk to!</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red">Just think of all the wasted time and
energy devoted to designing systems that look great on paper and fall apart at
execution. And even more wasted ergs devoted to rationalizing the result and
justifying the outcomes all because if an insane (I think) need to be in
control – even if you aren’t.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red">Major case in point. George W. Bush. He
took us to war in </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=red><SPAN
style="COLOR: red">Iraq</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=red><SPAN style="COLOR: red">
because of the dire threat of WMDs and ties to Al Qaeda – none of which turned
out to be true. But he was definitely in charge! And talk about
rationalization – it now turns out that we got into the whole thing in order
to promote democracy and spread liberty! And it now seems that something is
actually happening in The Middle East. Of course it may all stop tomorrow –
but for the moment it is true that elections were held in </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=red><SPAN style="COLOR: red">Iraq</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=red><SPAN
style="COLOR: red">, </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=red><SPAN
style="COLOR: red">Palestine</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=red><SPAN
style="COLOR: red">. Movement is appearing n </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=red><SPAN style="COLOR: red">Lebanon</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=red><SPAN
style="COLOR: red">. The </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=red><SPAN
style="COLOR: red">Ukraine</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=red><SPAN
style="COLOR: red"> pulls off a peaceful revolution. Space may be opening in
</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=red><SPAN
style="COLOR: red">Egypt</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=red><SPAN
style="COLOR: red"> and </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=red><SPAN
style="COLOR: red">Saudi Arabia</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=red><SPAN
style="COLOR: red">. And of course, George is going to claim credit for it
all. It was all in The Plan! He was/is in charge! Justified on every count –
or so he will say. But I say we have just muddled through one more time. And
somehow that great Complex Adaptive System called humanity is doing what it
has done for millennia – seeking fitness internally and among its several
parts and factions. Will it all work? Who knows, but one thing I am sure
about, George did not do it.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red">Harrison</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=red><SPAN style="COLOR: red"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face=Arial
color=red size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Harrison
Owen</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face=Arial
color=red size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">7808 River Falls
Drive</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face=Arial
color=red size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Potomac</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=red size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">, </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=red size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Maryland</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=red size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=red size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">20845</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face=Arial
color=red size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Phone
301-365-2093</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center></X-SIGSEP><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red"><!--StartFragment --><X-SIGSEP>Open Space
Training <A href="http://www.openspaceworld.com/"
eudora="autourl">www.openspaceworld.com</A> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red">Open Space Institute <A
href="http://www.openspaceworld.org"
eudora="autourl">www.openspaceworld.org</A></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red">Personal website <A
href="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm</A></SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue"><BR><A
href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</A></SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=red><SPAN style="COLOR: red"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=red size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: red">To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your
options, view the archives Visit: <A
href="http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html"
eudora="autourl">http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html</A></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">OSLIST</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
[mailto:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">OSLIST</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Artur
Silva</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Wednesday, March 16,
2005</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">9:27
AM</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">OSLIST</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Open space and software
development (was 'A short introduction')</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Thanks, </SPAN></FONT>Harrison, for
renaming the thread and sending this post when I have 10 minutes
free.</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">This allows me to say that I agree with
you (except peraphs in your mantra, because I still think that there are some
organizations - like the Catholic Church and most armies, some companies and
even countries - that have a lot of sucess in acting as closed systems -
even if there are also open processes hapenning in them) and disagreee with
Tom (or whoever he was agreeing with).</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">If someone goes through the Archives will
find a post from me some years ago where, based on an article from the
HBR on Open Source, I tried to show that it is very similar to Open
Space, because both are based on self organization.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I also recall some posts (from Michael
H?) about X-programming and its relations with Open
Space</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Regards</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Artur</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">--------<BR><BR><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">Harrison Owen
<hhowen@comcast.net></SPAN></I></B> wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 2.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Tom Wrote: "I agree, comparisons between open space,
open source and agile<BR>methods have limited value."<BR><BR>Probably true,
but I think that the value might lie in understanding that<BR>operative
power underlying all three "methods" is self-organization.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">(...) </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">To quote my now favorite mantra -- "There is no such
thing as a<BR>non-self organizing system." </SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=1>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<A
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