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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>Artur Wrote:</span></font> “This
allows me to say that I agree with you (except perhaps in your mantra, because
I still think that there are some organizations - like the Catholic Church and
most armies, some companies and even countries - that have a lot of success
in acting as closed systems - even if there are also open processes happening
in them.”</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Oh Artur – When will you see the
Light? Perceive the truth? Come to genuine enlightenment? How can you doubt my
words?? And of course, if you didn’t (doubt) you wouldn’t be Artur,
and I would loose a treasured colleague and friend!</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>So – they aren’t self-organizing???
Somehow these folks just managed to escape a major force and principle in
the cosmos that apparently dominates just about everything else from quarks to
quasars. But it could be true. And maybe they have really pulled it off. I have
no question that all the guilty parties named have done their very best to
maintain control. And for sure, all their press releases say they are in
charge. The “leaders” pound their chests, and the followers acquiesce
– if only to avoid the awful possibility that they (the followers) might
have some responsibility – which they clearly don’t if somebody else
is in charge. And God forbid they might actually have responsibility. That would
mean giving up bitching rights. How on earth are you going to complain about
all the awful things “they” did if you are they?</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Not a doubt about it – they all put up
a good front. Their act is almost believable, particularly for people who want
(need) to believe it. The Emperor keeps his cloths on, and that nasty little
boy has yet to whisper his words of wisdom (“The old fellow is buck
naked!”).</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Having spent no small amount of time within
the Catholic Church (not to mention other churches), Armies of various sorts,
and more companies than I care to remember – I have no question that the rhetoric
is as you state. But seen from the inside, my impression is that the reality is
markedly different. In the Catholic Church, you have only to listen to the
multiple persons and parties seeking fitness for themselves and in relationship
to the whole. The religious (nuns), for example working below the radar screen
doing what they think is right and offering ex post facto justification if
possible, and apologies if necessary. Watch an army in the field and ask who is
in charge. More often than not it is a 2<sup>nd</sup> lieutenant, sergeant or
more often a corporal out on “point.” And when it comes to the
companies – don’t forget Lucy out there in Accounting. Totally off
the organization chart. Not an ounce of authority – but if you want to
get something done, you know who to talk to!</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Just think of all the wasted time and energy
devoted to designing systems that look great on paper and fall apart at
execution. And even more wasted ergs devoted to rationalizing the result and
justifying the outcomes all because if an insane (I think) need to be in
control – even if you aren’t.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Major case in point. George W. Bush. He took
us to war in </span></font><font color=red><span style='color:red'>Iraq</span></font><font
color=red><span style='color:red'> because of the dire threat of WMDs and ties to
Al Qaeda – none of which turned out to be true. But he was definitely in
charge! And talk about rationalization – it now turns out that we got
into the whole thing in order to promote democracy and spread liberty! And it
now seems that something is actually happening in The Middle East. Of course it
may all stop tomorrow – but for the moment it is true that elections were
held in </span></font><font color=red><span style='color:red'>Iraq</span></font><font
color=red><span style='color:red'>, </span></font><font color=red><span
style='color:red'>Palestine</span></font><font color=red><span
style='color:red'>. Movement is appearing n </span></font><font color=red><span
style='color:red'>Lebanon</span></font><font color=red><span
style='color:red'>. The </span></font><font color=red><span style='color:red'>Ukraine</span></font><font
color=red><span style='color:red'> pulls off a peaceful revolution. Space may
be opening in </span></font><font color=red><span style='color:red'>Egypt</span></font><font
color=red><span style='color:red'> and </span></font><font color=red><span
style='color:red'>Saudi Arabia</span></font><font color=red><span
style='color:red'>. And of course, George is going to claim credit for it all.
It was all in The Plan! He was/is in charge! Justified on every count –
or so he will say. But I say we have just muddled through one more time. And
somehow that great Complex Adaptive System called humanity is doing what it has
done for millennia – seeking fitness internally and among its several
parts and factions. Will it all work? Who knows, but one thing I am sure about,
George did not do it.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Harrison</span></font><font color=red><span
style='color:red'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Harrison Owen</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>7808 River Falls Drive</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Potomac</span></font><font size=2 color=red face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>, </span></font><font
size=2 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Maryland</span></font><font size=2 color=red face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>20845</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Phone 301-365-2093</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'></X-SIGSEP><font
size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:red'><!--StartFragment --><X-SIGSEP>Open Space Training <a
href="http://www.openspaceworld.com/" eudora=autourl>www.openspaceworld.com</a>
</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Open
Space Institute <a href="http://www.openspaceworld.org" eudora=autourl>www.openspaceworld.org</a></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Personal
website <a href="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm"
eudora=autourl>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm</a></span></font><font
color=blue><span style='color:blue'><br>
<a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a></span></font><font
color=red><span style='color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-align:center'><font
size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:red'>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the
archives Visit: <a
href="http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html" eudora=autourl>http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html</a></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> [mailto:</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b></span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Artur
Silva</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Wednesday,
March 16, 2005</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>9:27 AM</span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Open space and
software development (was 'A short introduction')</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thanks, </span></font>Harrison, for renaming the
thread and sending this post when I have 10 minutes free.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>This allows me to say that I agree with you (except
peraphs in your mantra, because I still think that there are some organizations
- like the Catholic Church and most armies, some companies and even
countries - that have a lot of sucess in acting as closed systems - even
if there are also open processes hapenning in them) and disagreee with Tom (or
whoever he was agreeing with).</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>If someone goes through the Archives will find a
post from me some years ago where, based on an article from the HBR on Open Source, I
tried to show that it is very similar to Open Space, because both are based on
self organization.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I also recall some posts (from Michael H?) about
X-programming and its relations with Open Space</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Regards</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Artur</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>--------<br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Harrison Owen <hhowen@comcast.net></span></i></b>
wrote:</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 3.0pt;
margin-left:2.5pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Tom Wrote: "I agree, comparisons between open
space, open source and agile<br>
methods have limited value."<br>
<br>
Probably true, but I think that the value might lie in understanding that<br>
operative power underlying all three "methods" is self-organization.</span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>(...) </span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>To quote my now favorite mantra -- "There is no
such thing as a<br>
non-self organizing system." </span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Small Business - <a
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=31637/*http:/smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/">Try
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