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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>Marty Wrote:</span></font><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> Of course if
you look at any part of the whole (financial systems, </span></font><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Iraq</span></font><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>, the
US, you, me) things can seem fairly closed from time to time. But if
you look at the deeper whole, I don't know if anything is ever closed or
if "we" ever "open" a space. Maybe we just give it a
nudge, when it is already on the verge of realization, helping it to see that
it can be open, because it is already open. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>Marty – I think you have it precisely
right. Or at least I agree with you, which may not be the same thing. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>Harrison</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Harrison Owen</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>7808 River Falls Drive</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Potomac, Maryland 20845</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Phone 301-365-2093</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'></X-SIGSEP><font
size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:red'><!--StartFragment --><X-SIGSEP>Open Space Training <a
href="http://www.openspaceworld.com/" eudora=autourl>www.openspaceworld.com</a>
</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Open
Space Institute <a href="http://www.openspaceworld.org" eudora=autourl>www.openspaceworld.org</a></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Personal
website <a href="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm"
eudora=autourl>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm</a></span></font><font
color=blue><span style='color:blue'><br>
<a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a></span></font><font
color=red><span style='color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-align:center'><font
size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:red'>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> [mailto:</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Marty Boroson<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, February 13, 2005
12:12 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Turtles (short)</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Dear friends:</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>I am new to the list and this is
my first post, but I am a great fan of turtles and so must jump in.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>For me, I have to ask who or
what is the "self" that is self-organizing? If this self
is really <em><i><font face=Verdana><span style='font-family:Verdana'>Self</span></font></i></em>
(ie. God or Spirit or Brahman or whatever you'd like to call it) then
surely everything in creation is indeed Self-organizing, and included in this
are so-called non-living systems. Everything is part of an emergent
order. (This is just another way of saying ... turtles all the
way up!)</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Of course if you look at any
part of the whole (financial systems, Iraq, the US, you, me) things can seem
fairly closed from time to time. But if you look at the deeper
whole, I don't know if anything is ever closed or if "we" ever
"open" a space. Maybe we just give it a nudge, when it is
already on the verge of realization, helping it to see that it can be open,
because it is already open. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Marty Boroson<br>
Devon, UK</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><a href="http://www.becomingme.com">www.becomingme.com</a></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 3.0pt;
margin-left:2.5pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:arturfsilva@yahoo.com" title="arturfsilva@yahoo.com">Artur Silva</a>
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU"
title="OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Sunday,
February 13, 2005 3:15 PM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re: Turtles
(short)</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><em><b><i><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Masud
Sheikh <<a href="mailto:masheikh@cogeco.ca">masheikh@cogeco.ca</a>></span></font></i></b></em>
wrote: </p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>HO wrote:<br>
"Or put rather bluntly - There are only some mildly deluded folks who
think they did the<br>
organizing. Outrageous for sure, and possibly a break with reality, but that<br>
is pretty much where I found myself."<br>
<br>
I believe the statement "there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing<br>
system" is true for living systems, but not for non-living systems. For<br>
instance, in any "organization" there are systems of people, who find
that<br>
the best team-building may be done around the coffee machine or bar, rather<br>
than in a classroom, teaching "teamwork". There are other systems
(e.g. the<br>
financial reporting system) that are non-living. Both the living and<br>
non-living systems interact with - and impact - each other.<br>
<br>
Let me stop here, and invite others to join in</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Masud - thanks for taking the lead on this.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Harrison - there are two things that I don't
understand in this last post and in some others from you. I think I have
already referred to this, but let's go again.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>1. You refer often to Kaufman's conditions for
self-organization. Clearly those conditions are NOT current and they occur only
in special situations. So it seems to me that there is a contradiction between
your references to those conditions and your persistent affirmations that
"there is not such thing as a non-self-organizing-systems". Can you
clarify your thoughts about this please?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>2. I agree with Masud that the statement is true
for "living systems". So when we consider the humans as part of an
ecosystem we can see them as a "living systems". But human organizations
are not only "living material". Masud gave an example with the
financial system, but there are others. An organization is a mix of living
people with objects, rules, procedures, hierarchies, etc that are not
"living" in the biological sense. Those rules and procedures
inhibit, in my opinion, their being "living systems".
That's is precisely the reason why we talk about opening the space - the fact
that quite often in organizations and even in communities the space is pretty
closed. Any comments?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Artur</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
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