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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Artur wrote – </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>“1. You refer often to Kaufman's conditions for
self-organization. Clearly those conditions are NOT current and they occur only
in special situations. So it seems to me that there is a contradiction between
your references to those conditions and your persistent affirmations that
"there is not such thing as a non-self-organizing-systems". Can you
clarify your thoughts about this please?”</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>It may well be just a difference in where I
am sitting – but from my view point, there are precious few moments in my
existence/experience when Kaufmann’s Preconditions are NOT present. For
those who have not been following Kaufmann’s work the essential
preconditions for self-organization as he understands it (and others have a
different take on the matter) are 1) A relatively safe nutrient environment. 2)
High levels of diversity. 3) High levels of potential complexity (things could
fit together in a variety of ways) 4) Space Prior Connections (the stuff is not
already organized). 5) A search for fitness. 6) Being at the edge of chaos. I
would concede that condition #1 (safety) may not always be there, but all the
rest seem to me to be pretty much of an everyday experience. And even #1 shows
up more often than we might suspect. I have spent a fair amount of time in some
pretty unsafe environments, psychologically and physically – and even in
the worst of those, there were moments of rest and safety. And how much time do
you actually need? Very little I suspect – in fact one of the strange
things about self-organization is just how quickly it takes place when the
conditions are “right.” Sometimes it seems almost instantaneous. Just
think of what we all experience every time Space is opened. From start to
organized work – something less than an hour. I would probably happen
faster if we didn’t have to talk so much.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>“2. I agree with Masud that the statement is true for
"living systems". So when we consider the humans as part of an ecosystem
we can see them as a "living systems". But human organizations are
not only "living material". Masud gave an example with the financial
system, but there are others. An organization is a mix of living people with
objects, rules, procedures, hierarchies, etc that are not "living" in
the biological sense. Those rules and procedures inhibit, in my
opinion, their being "living systems". That's is precisely
the reason why we talk about opening the space - the fact that quite often in
organizations and even in communities the space is pretty closed. Any comments?”</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>I think my comments to Masud apply here too.
It is all about the degrees of freedom and the size of the possibility space. Both
of these can be very different in various situations. But I would suggest that
process remains the same. Further, if the degrees of freedom were zero and the
possibility space reduced to nothing – the organization would be dead. So
when we (I) Open Space in an organization that is still alive (and by
definition I don’t have much opportunity with the dead ones) – I am
not so much creating anything new but reminding them of what they already have
and are. In words I have used before, creating an Open Space Organization is a
waste of time. Every organization is already an Open Space organization; they
are just doing it rather badly. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=3 color=red
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>The real issue
for me is How can they do it better? And what would doing better look like? Which
comes back to the question I posed when I opened up this particular space –
“</span></font><font face="Courier New"><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'>how
we can reasonably and effectively live in a fully self-organizing world? What
is the role of the individual, place of individual initiative, function of
leadership, planning . . .?” </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Harrison</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Harrison Owen</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>7808 River Falls Drive</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Potomac</span></font><font size=2 color=red face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>, </span></font><font
size=2 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Maryland</span></font><font size=2 color=red face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>20845</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Phone 301-365-2093</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'></X-SIGSEP><font
size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:red'><!--StartFragment --><X-SIGSEP>Open Space Training <a
href="http://www.openspaceworld.com/" eudora=autourl>www.openspaceworld.com</a>
</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Open
Space Institute <a href="http://www.openspaceworld.org" eudora=autourl>www.openspaceworld.org</a></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Personal
website <a href="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm"
eudora=autourl>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm</a></span></font><font
color=blue><span style='color:blue'><br>
<a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a></span></font><font
color=red><span style='color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-align:center'><font
size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:red'>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the
archives Visit: <a
href="http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html" eudora=autourl>http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html</a></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> [mailto:</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b></span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Artur
Silva</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Sunday,
February 13, 2005</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>10:16 AM</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Turtles (short)</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><em><b><i><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Masud
Sheikh <masheikh@cogeco.ca></span></font></i></b></em> wrote: </p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>HO wrote:<br>
"Or put rather bluntly - there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing<br>
system. There are only some mildly deluded folks who think they did the<br>
organizing. Outrageous for sure, and possibly a break with reality, but that<br>
is pretty much where I found myself."<br>
<br>
I believe the statement "there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing<br>
system" is true for living systems, but not for non-living systems. For<br>
instance, in any "organization" there are systems of people, who find
that<br>
the best team-building may be done around the coffee machine or bar, rather<br>
than in a classroom, teaching "teamwork". There are other systems
(e.g. the<br>
financial reporting system) that are non-living. Both the living and<br>
non-living systems interact with - and impact - each other.<br>
<br>
Let me stop here, and invite others to join in</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Masud - thanks for taking the lead on this.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Harrison</span></font> - there are two things that I
don't understand in this last post and in some others from you. I think I have
already referred to this, but let's go again.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>1. You refer often to Kaufman's conditions for
self-organization. Clearly those conditions are NOT current and they occur only
in special situations. So it seems to me that there is a contradiction between
your references to those conditions and your persistent affirmations that
"there is not such thing as a non-self-organizing-systems". Can you
clarify your thoughts about this please?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>2. I agree with Masud that the statement is true
for "living systems". So when we consider the humans as part of an
ecosystem we can see them as a "living systems". But human
organizations are not only "living material". Masud gave an example
with the financial system, but there are others. An organization is a mix of
living people with objects, rules, procedures, hierarchies, etc that are not
"living" in the biological sense. Those rules and procedures
inhibit, in my opinion, their being "living systems".
That's is precisely the reason why we talk about opening the space - the fact
that quite often in organizations and even in communities the space is pretty
closed. Any comments?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Artur</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. <a
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=29915/*http:/info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250">Do
more. Manage less.</a> * *
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