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<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Dear friends:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I am new to the list and this is my first post,
but I am a great fan of turtles and so must jump in.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>For me, I have to ask who or what is the
"self" that is self-organizing? If this self is
really <EM>Self</EM> (ie. God or Spirit or Brahman or whatever you'd
like to call it) then surely everything in creation is indeed Self-organizing,
and included in this are so-called non-living systems. Everything is part
of an emergent order. (This is just another way of saying
... turtles all the way up!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Of course if you look at any part of the
whole (financial systems, Iraq, the US, you, me) things can seem fairly closed
from time to time. But if you look at the deeper whole, I don't
know if anything is ever closed or if "we" ever "open" a space. Maybe we
just give it a nudge, when it is already on the verge of realization, helping it
to see that it can be open, because it is already open. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Marty Boroson<BR>Devon, UK</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><A
href="http://www.becomingme.com">www.becomingme.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=arturfsilva@yahoo.com href="mailto:arturfsilva@yahoo.com">Artur
Silva</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 13, 2005 3:15
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Turtles (short)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM>Masud Sheikh <<A
href="mailto:masheikh@cogeco.ca">masheikh@cogeco.ca</A>></EM></STRONG>
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">HO
wrote:<BR>"Or put rather bluntly - There are only some mildly deluded folks
who think they did the<BR>organizing. Outrageous for sure, and possibly a
break with reality, but that<BR>is pretty much where I found
myself."<BR><BR>I believe the statement "there is no such thing as a
non-self-organizing<BR>system" is true for living systems, but not for
non-living systems. For<BR>instance, in any "organization" there are systems
of people, who find that<BR>the best team-building may be done around the
coffee machine or bar, rather<BR>than in a classroom, teaching "teamwork".
There are other systems (e.g. the<BR>financial reporting system) that are
non-living. Both the living and<BR>non-living systems interact with - and
impact - each other.<BR><BR>Let me stop here, and invite others to join
in<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Masud - thanks for taking the lead on this.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Harrison - there are two things that I don't understand in this last post
and in some others from you. I think I have already referred to this, but
let's go again.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1. You refer often to Kaufman's conditions for self-organization. Clearly
those conditions are NOT current and they occur only in special situations. So
it seems to me that there is a contradiction between your references to those
conditions and your persistent affirmations that "there is not such thing as a
non-self-organizing-systems". Can you clarify your thoughts about this
please?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>2. I agree with Masud that the statement is true for "living
systems". So when we consider the humans as part of an ecosystem we can see
them as a "living systems". But human organizations are not only "living
material". Masud gave an example with the financial system, but there are
others. An organization is a mix of living people with objects, rules,
procedures, hierarchies, etc that are not "living" in the biological
sense. Those rules and procedures inhibit, in my opinion, their
being "living systems". That's is precisely the reason why we talk about
opening the space - the fact that quite often in organizations and even in
communities the space is pretty closed. Any comments?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Artur</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> <BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
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