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<p><small><tt>hello birgitt...<br>
</tt></small></p>
<p><small><tt><br>
</tt></small></p>
<p><small><tt>Birgitt Williams wrote:</tt></small></p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="midMABBKIBOMGBFGLEFAMADCEPKEAAA.birgitt@mindspring.com">
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<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003">Michael (Herman),</span></small></font></tt> </small></p>
</div>
<p><small> </small></p>
<div class="Section1">
<p><small> </small></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><small> </small></p>
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<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003">I apologize for taking so long to continue this
conversation with you. Life happened and today is my first real computer
day in weeks. </span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</div>
<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003"></span></small></font> </tt></small></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
...this is exactly why i want to have this conversation, to do this work,
inside of the wiki space on the website rather than via the oslist. the
work we are doing now in the .NET wiki, me and the others who've already
joined in, is large and longterm. it's not the kind of thing we can do with
occasional oslist postings... we need a place to gather and grow our ongoing
plans and reflections, where gaps in attendance don't create gaps in the
work. also, no one person actually controls those sites and we need to be
watching what happens there so that no vandals or technical troubles do serious
damage to them. some of us are visiting this new space daily to notice
and extend what is there. this is the nature of this ongoing development
work. it takes regular attention and attendance, a continuity that gets
lost in the world of email...<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003">I wanted to draft a thorough response regarding
the conversation that we had about the new <a
href="http://www.openspaceworld.net">www.openspaceworld.net</a> site. </span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</blockquote>
<br>
your thoroughness and depth of attention would add much to the site, if you
would just add to the site... <grin><br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003">I notice that you have posted our OS list conversation
on that site. For now, I feel that the right place for my posting is on
the OS list because it involves our OS list community--and I am fine if
you also post it on the website in your questions section.</span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</blockquote>
<small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003"></span></small></font></tt></small>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="midMABBKIBOMGBFGLEFAMADCEPKEAAA.birgitt@mindspring.com">
<p><small> </small></p>
<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003">I admire all that you are doing with the websites,
your energy and passion, commitment and discipline. I wanted to be very
clear about that so that you will hopefully see that where I am coming from
is a supportive place. I note your invitations for us to participate in
the websites and I would like to do this but first I seek clarity about
whether it is the right place for me to commit some of my energy. This e-mail
is about seeking that clarity and I will be pleased to have the discussion
that helps me to decide.</span></small></font></tt></small> </p>
<p><small> </small></p>
<p><small><tt> </tt></small></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
...and i thnk that the only way to decide if you will participate in the
work that is unfolding at .NET is to go there... there is no discussion to
be had here... the space at .NET is open. you are welcome there. it is
not a conversation, really, there either. it is the development of a working
space for practitioners. an unfolding project plan. i think you don't like
this word, practitioner, but i don't know what else to call people who are
practicing ost. perhaps you prefer 'leaders of open space events and projects.'
<br>
<br>
in any event, the .NET space is a facility for those who are practicing,
leading, opening to post the proceedings from their events there. it is
a space that community groups and project teams can use to work on their
own, local projects. it's a space where those groups can benefit from a
free, open and simple online workign space AND where we all can benefit from
watching them unfold their work in an ongoing open space way. this space
is obviously not appropriate for every group or leader. it is also likely
that not all groups will unfold in perfectly beautiful ways. what does happen
there will be real, and that should be enough to be interesting.<br>
<br>
one of the project groups hosted there in the .NET space is the work of maintaining
that .NET space. it is in that space that we are working out how .NET works.
it is a work in progress and only those who show up there to do the work
are going to be able to shape that work. anybody who cares about what our
online spaces look like needs to show up there and *work with* other people
there to give it shape. the proceedings of any open space session are written
by those who actually attend the session. in this case, the session in meeting
in the .NET wiki. <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.openspaceworld.net/wiki.cgi">http://www.openspaceworld.net/wiki.cgi</a>?<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="midMABBKIBOMGBFGLEFAMADCEPKEAAA.birgitt@mindspring.com">
<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003">I also choose to recognize that by being the
webmaster for the community Open Space websites, that you are in a position
of power. From that position, by shaping the "givens" or what is not negotiable,
you have great power in shaping how Open Space Technology is perceived in
the world now and into the future. This is neither good nor bad. It simply
is power of position added to the power that we all have including power
of presence and power of communication. I believe that you will hold and
carry out this power of position well, with recognition that many people
rely on the reputation of OST for their ongoing business as independent
consultants who have focused their business on OST.</span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</div>
<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003"></span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="midMABBKIBOMGBFGLEFAMADCEPKEAAA.birgitt@mindspring.com">
<div>
<p><small><tt> </tt></small></p>
</div>
<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003">I know that our participants in OST meetings
go through the same thing. They receive an invitation and then they have
to make a decision about whether they choose to attend or not. Offering
as much information in the invitation as possible is helpful so that they
can make an informed choice. And so, I was seeking more information about
what I was being invited into. I am not wanting to interupt your opening
circle, but wanting to go back to what this is and what it is not so that
I can make an informed choice.</span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</div>
<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003"></span></small></font> </tt></small></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
...yes, i am the keeper of the .ORG and .NET websites. at least technically,
that is. but these sites have always run in open space. from the beginning,
i have actively invited everyone to take responsibility for the site and
the story. i have perhaps taken most direct responsibility and so i have
perhaps had more of what i care about reflected in the site, which is to
say that the power i have has come through my own practice of passion bounded
by responsiblity. but many other names are there with mine, because many
others have posted their own articles, tools, stories and other bits into
the old bulletin board and/or the new wiki spaces, in response to my invitations.
and everyone gets full credit for what they have contributed. <br>
<br>
to the extent that there are some pages at .ORG that say what open space
*is* then yes, these pages do something to shape that story in the world.
that so many people commented on these pages when they were first posted
in 1999 (i think), that so many are using these few pages around the world
as handouts to clients, and that members of the oslist have chosen to take
responsibility for translating them into a dozen languages tells me that
they fairly well reflect what we as a worldwide practice community believe
OST to be in the world. <br>
<br>
the invitation to .ORG has been and continues to be this: come post your
stories, your contact info, your tools, your links, your training info, etc.
so that people everywhere can find you and your OST wisdom. we give you
space and access to the world with full credit and attribution and contact
potential and you give us the use of your wisdom. <br>
<br>
the invitation to .NET has been and continues to be this: come and use
the space to support your project/community work in OST. post your notes
and followup plans and then keep working them out there, with your local
partners and participants there for as long as it's useful to you. we'll
give you the space to work, you give us the chance to watch you work.<br>
<br>
within the .NET space, i have begun to document the development of the .ORG
space, as one of the projects unfolding in the .NET wiki. i like to think
that this is me leading by example, using our online workspace to convene
my own workgroup, on an issue that i am passionate about, the maintenance
and development of the OSW websites. <br>
<br>
it is not a small project and not a small responsibility, i think, this
ongoing tidying of a space with so many voices and stories accumulated now.
it is a project that i think is too big for the oslist... because many
on the list do not care to be involved in it, do not have the time or interest
in getting to understand the structure and histories of the website stories,
are not willing to learn how to edit and organize information in a wiki website,
and/or do not have the time or inclination to take direct hands-on responsibility
for posting things on the site. <br>
<br>
i also think that, while it may be interesting to discuss the content and
structure of the websites on the list, to invite discussion about the websites
in a forum where many participants are not taking direct responsibility for
the work of the sites is not consistent with our practice of keeping passion
and responsibility closely linked, is not really fair to the many who've worked
on the site over the years, and not particularly helpful to us in moving
forward. <br>
<br>
i very much want questions and comments about the site, i've always invited
and encouraged and responded to same. i've dealt with them directly in
the past, in private emails and these have done much to shape the sites. what
i want to do now is take that community conversatoin public, make in accessible
to the whole community, AND still continue to invite people to take direct
responsibility for their website passions. i have not much interest in talking
about the sites with those not willing or able to be directly involved with
the community of folks who are personally and collectively learning their
way into this piece of online work. it's just too hard for me to do this
in any way other than passion bounded by responsibility. <br>
<br>
and so i don't feel particularly powerful in this position at all, i actually
am feeling quite overwhelmed by the amount of attention that i'm bringing
to the various inquiries and learnings and experiments that are happening
now, IN the wikis that have been set up AND at the same time i am very happy
for the company and care that many have and are now bringing to this work.
i think we are making an important expansion of community capacity that will
be well worth the current stretching for me personally.<br>
<br>
i'm glad for you and anyone else to join us, but for better or worse, we
are gathering at the .NET wiki, not the oslist. what is being done on the
wiki sites is NOT a substitute for the OSLIST. i would suggest that the
oslist is our big news circle and that the wiki is a place to document smaller
breakout sessions being held around the world. whoever comes to our little
breakout session is very welcome and is the right people. <br>
<br>
in any openspace event, we get only the topic and the name(s) of conveners,
no givens, no speeches.... it's up to every participant to surf by the sessions
they think they are interested in and see what is happening, see if it calls
them, see if they want to join that particular piece fo work. law of two
feet. or in this case two clicks. everybody's welcome to join us and nobody
has to. and the work will continue to be shaped by those who do join us.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="midMABBKIBOMGBFGLEFAMADCEPKEAAA.birgitt@mindspring.com">
<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003">There are always "givens" or non-negotiables
in life, whether we like them or not. Collectives of individuals (organizations)
run into real problems when the "givens" are implicit rather than explicit.
This leads to the making of assumptions that are not useful. And implicit
assumptions, in my experience, lead to the potential for misuse of and misunderstanding
of power. This happened to me within the <a
href="http://www.openspaceworld.org">www.openspaceworld.org</a> site which
I brought to your attention. The pages that are "read only" shape the tone/philosophy
of the site and how it presents OST to the world.</span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
...some .ORG pages are read only because they are too big to be edited directly
by any one person. some of them hold together the structure that makes it
possible to access LOTS of information by relatively simple and direct paths.
the implicit assumption you seem to be making is that I wrote them and invited
you to come edit MY writing. i think that this assumption is not quite right.
<br>
<br>
as i've said above and before, the site is the authorship of many. it's
just not appropriate to go in and edit that. it's also not right to leave
the site totally open so that any individual can push their way to the front
of years of collaboration and development and story-sifting. that is why
i want to grow a development workgroup. when a workgroup is established
and stabilized, then more of the pages can be opened for comment, because
the group will be able to monitor and secure the content, balance and maintain
access, simplicity clarity, completeness. in the absence of community solution
and security, technical solution must suffice, for now at least. what's
more, "not-read-only" is REALLY open and i just don't have the time and energy
to be the only one defending these pages against vandalism and also to be
constantly on call and on the spot to explain why these pages got to be this
way. in short, there is much community history in these pages and i'm feeling
some responsibility for passing on that history in an organized, explicit,
and deep community way. <br>
<br>
when we first opened up the whole of the .ORG site for editing, .NET did
not yet exist. now that it does, i have shifted my attention to growing
that and the workgroup there, so that group can eventually take full and
shared responsibility for unfolding the .ORG site. that said, .ORG is by
NO means a closed space. <br>
<br>
there is, plenty of space at .ORG to post story blurbs, contact info, resource
tools, articles, links etc.... it's the easiest way to join the work there...
just play enough to get your name in teh directory, to post a story or whatever...
it's a way to be involved and mentioned and contributing without taking on
more responsibility. another implicit assumption seems to be that i am in
control of the websites, and i think that's just not the case. if that were
true, we would not have 12 languages there and i wouldn't be spending as
much time on the whole project as i am. it's really more than i care to
deal with. when you show up and want to edit some of these core pages, i
want to know who will edit the other eleven. i'm not controlling the content
of the site and also not inviting individuals to unilaterally edit community
work. <br>
<br>
these questions you're asking here have been helpful in making this clear.
i am grateful and thank you for that. i'm sorry if my previous messages
didn't make this community bit clear. i'm also wishing that these questions
were originally posted into (and now being answered in) the .NET wiki, where
they'd be part of the permanent community record. i don't htink i have energy
to put them there just now. over the years, as people have stepped up to
do things (ask questions, post languages, etc.), i have stepped up to help
them. now i'm really wanting to use the wiki spaces to do that asking, shaping
and helping more openly, answering questions only once and making it clearer
to everyone where our growing expertise lives, in many bodies and email boxes
other than mine. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="midMABBKIBOMGBFGLEFAMADCEPKEAAA.birgitt@mindspring.com">
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003"> </span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</div>
<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003"></span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="midMABBKIBOMGBFGLEFAMADCEPKEAAA.birgitt@mindspring.com">
<div>
<p><small><tt> </tt></small></p>
</div>
<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003">When you invited us to contribute into that
site as a wiki site, it appeared that ALL was open to editing and change.
And then I ran right into the "givens" that were implied but never clearly
stated, because the very pages I wanted to put changes on where the ones
that were "read only". You replied saying that this was what gave the site
its structure and so it could not be changed except through you. In this
circle of people that we are, there are 360 degrees of perspectives of what
OST is and how to present it. It is no surprise that my perspective is different
than yours. Both are valid. However, one perspective (may be shared by many)
is created for the site by structuring the implicit "givens" on that site.
I think if it was the site of one individual rather than the community site,
this would be fine. But, with a community site (assuming the community is
the community on the OS list), </span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="midMABBKIBOMGBFGLEFAMADCEPKEAAA.birgitt@mindspring.com">
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003">I would say that the "givens" should have a chance
for conversation and agreement so that the site is truly representative
of the community. Maybe you did initiate this discussion to let us help
in shaping the givens and I missed it. If so, I apologize for raising this.</span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</div>
<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003"></span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
so i hope this clarifies that the sites are indeed 'community' affairs, community
assets and community products, and that the 'community' that is invited to
comment on them is the community that actually shows up to take responsibility
for building and maintaining those spaces, not just commenting via the OSLIST.
the invitation is primarily to add to this body of community work, not
try to edit what the community has produced so far. anyone can contribute
their stories, articles, contact info, tools, etc... and anyone can join
the group that is beginning to learn how to give all of that information
primary shape and clear accessibility on the wiki. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="midMABBKIBOMGBFGLEFAMADCEPKEAAA.birgitt@mindspring.com">
<div>
<p><small><tt> </tt></small></p>
</div>
<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003">So now to the <a
href="http://www.openspaceworld.net">www.openspaceworld.net</a> site. I
want to participate if it is a place that is in alignment with my energy
and I want to support your work. A question for me is, is my perspective
about OST and how to work with OST welcome on the site? </span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
.NET is not really for talking about OST... it's for using it, doing it,
showing it. so i don't think our perspectives about ost are going to matter
so much. if you have groups working in os that want to work online after
the event, then you can offer them that online working space, same as any
other. to the extent that you stay involved iwth them or even if you can
do prep work with them online, we will all learn something aobut how you
practice. that will be a great gift to all of us, i thnk.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="midMABBKIBOMGBFGLEFAMADCEPKEAAA.birgitt@mindspring.com">
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003">Another question for me is will I accept the
invitation to participating in the site, when there is something in the
invitation that is philisophically different to what I believe in and different
to the message I want to give to the world about my work with OST. This
took me to asking you why the site focuses on OST "practitioners". In using
this on the splash page, there is already a philisophical shaping, an implicit
"given". I in no way want to challenge your (or others) personal use of
that word for your own business. My challenge arises when this is an implicit
given on the community site. I personally do not want to be viewed by my
clients as someone who is practicing OST. And so, my question arose for
you about the "givens" for the site. Who has set them, what are they, and
can they be changed? I know that there are thousands of people in the world
involved with OST and only about 300 on this list but the list is what we
have as what can be perceived as a community. I recommend that the "givens"
for the community Open Space Websites be discussed and decided on on this
list. I appreciate your invitation to sort out the "givens" within the wiki
site, but that does not seem to be the place to sort out the overarching
givens that govern the whole site (those that are already in place).</span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</div>
<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003"></span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
i've discussed this some on the .NET wiki. the site is for practitioners
and the projects they will do there and the people they will invite to work
on those projects in that space... i know we have some differences in our
approaches and languages, but i'm not clear if you object to the word practitioner
everywhere or just on the splash page. as i say, i need to take up these
questions within the space that has been opened for them where the real work
can get done, rather than out in the lobby where many might be lured to offer
some passion without taking equivalent responsibility... so i'm glad to
have this continue, but let's go inside and post something on the wall, so
that those who share our passion for this story can join us and go into this
more deeply, and the larger connections that happen on the list can continue
as well. we can always bring news of our progress back to this larger circle
and invite others to come into the wiki for a second, third, fourth... session.
<br>
<br>
i hope this helps and hope that it will continue to unfold at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.openspaceworld.NET/network/wiki.cgi?OpenSpaceWorldNET">http://www.openspaceworld.NET/network/wiki.cgi?OpenSpaceWorldNET</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="midMABBKIBOMGBFGLEFAMADCEPKEAAA.birgitt@mindspring.com">
<div>
<p><small><tt> </tt></small></p>
</div>
<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003">I think this is such important work that you
are leading in Michael, and I see the power in it to deeply affect all who
are working with OST now and into the future. I thank you and I hope that
you find my contribution here to be helpful. </span></small></font></tt></small></p>
</div>
<p><small> </small></p>
<div>
<p><small><tt><font color="#000080" size="3"><small><span
class="560053019-21072003"></span></small></font> </tt></small></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
many thanks, michael<br>
</p>
<p><br>
<br>
</p>
<p><small><tt>-- <br>
<br>
Michael Herman<br>
Michael Herman Associates<br>
300 West North Avenue #1105<br>
Chicago IL 60610 USA<br>
(312) 280-7838<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.michaelherman.com">http://www.michaelherman.com</a> - consulting & publications<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.globalchicago.net">http://www.globalchicago.net</a> - laboratory & playground<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.openspaceworld.org">http://www.openspaceworld.org</a> - worldwide open space<br>
<br>
...inviting organization into movement<br>
<br>
<br>
</tt></small></p>
<small><tt><br>
</tt></small>
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