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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Once when I was facilitating a group of
First Nations people from all over </span></font><st1:State><st1:place><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>British Columbia</span></font></st1:place></st1:State><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> and we were doing action planning, I invited the group to “come
forward to the centre of the circle, grab five dots and indicate where your
passion lay.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Two older women from the Carrier Nation
started laughing.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>In the Carrier
language “do’t” (which sounds very much like “dot”)
is a very rude term for female anatomy.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>They
had a moment of thrilling confusion until they figured out what I REALLY meant!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Chris<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>---<br>
CHRIS CORRIGAN<br>
Bowen Island, BC, Canada<br>
<a href="http://www.chriscorrigan.com">http://www.chriscorrigan.com</a><br>
<a href="mailto:chris@chriscorrigan.com">chris@chriscorrigan.com</a></span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>(604) 947-9236<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> OSLIST
[mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Lucy Geão<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, July 15, 2003 7:43
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Res: Languages and
Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Joelle, artur (and all too)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>do not be worried, the word "paper" has
differents meanings as artur showed but "role" is used so
frequently that I am almost sure that the brazilian people attending the
event understood the confusion between what the translator did and
what you was really intending to say and , possibly, smiled. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>lucy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-style:italic'>-------Mensagem original-------</span></font></i><font
face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=receivestrings>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><i><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>De:</span></font></i></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><i><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Data:</span></font></i></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Tuesday,
July 15, 2003 19:48:30<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><i><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Para:</span></font></i></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><i><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Assunto:</span></font></i></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Languages
and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hi Joelle and Lucy (and all)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Joelle wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>Artur-- (...)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>I was quite interested to observe that the Brazilians
listed only roles of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>family and relationships. I suspect, that this is
because family and<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>interpersonal relationships are far more important in
Latin cultures. But<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>I also wonder<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>if the word which was used to translate
"roles," (I think something like<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>"rolas," ) might have a more-specific
meaning in Portugese, so the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>response might<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>have been shaped by the word that was used. What do
you think?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>And Lucy replyied:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>joelle, the translation is really an important detail
in any place of the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>word. really the bad translation of "role"
transformed a word that means<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>"paper" or "part of" (he plays the
part of the monster) into a swearword<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>>used for some cheap persons speaking about penis.
complicated, you see?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>This is really an amazing story about languages and
translations. May I use<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>that story for other purposes and quote you both?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I would like to add some comments:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>1. I have decided to wait for an eventual answer from
Lucy, as I had the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>idea that "rola" could have in Brasil this slang
meaning, but I was not<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>sure. "rola" is indeed a white bird
(turtle-dove, says my Dictionary) that<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>is used in slang Portugues to refer only to "female
brests", but I was<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>almost sure of once hearing it in Brasil with the meaning
Lucy clarified.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>2. This contains other lessons. Translators are often not
very good,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>especially if they don't know the subject they are trying
to traslate. And<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I have noticed often that, in such cases, they don't say
"I can't translate<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>that". They will chose - especially in oral
translation" - a "similar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>word". In this case with devastating effects... I
suposed that the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Brasilians, confused, tryed to give an answer... as they
could... So, I<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>suspect your conclusion, was not necessarily correct,
Joelle.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>3. But even if the translator knows the meaning of the
word he/she can<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>often do a "correct<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>word-translation" that is still useless.
"Role" translates into Portugues,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>as Lucy pointed out, as "papél", plural
"papéis" (the Spanish "papeles").<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The point is that "papel" also means
"paper", like in "a sheet of paper". I<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>wonder what the Brasilians would answer to this
possibility, namely if they<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>were low class and never heard of "papeis" in
this sense....<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>4. Contextual translation, done by someone that knows the
subject, would<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>understant the what should be translated was not
"roles" but "social roles"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>giving "papéis sociais" that can not, of course,
be confused with sheets of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>papers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>5. Now imagine what would happen if this was a
conversation between an Arab<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>and a Juif mediated by an American President, with the
help of a translator<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>without an "absolutely perfect knowledge" of
BOTH languages. Terrible, I<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>suspect.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>6. My conclusion - if you era "broadcasting" or
publishing a book, good<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>traslations can be useful<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>(like in the Brasilian translation of the User's Guide)..
But to mediate<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>"conversations", translations are NEVER a
replacement for bi-linguism.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>7: I think that people giving training in a foreign
language in a different<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>country, when that training must be mediated by a
translater, must always<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>ask very seriously what are the qualifications of the
translator in the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>subject of the training and not only the "translation
qualification" in<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>other subjects.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>8. I am sure that I could do a good translation of English
to Portuguese in<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>subjects like management or information systems. But I am
affraid to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>confess, Joelle, that I would be unable to transslate one
of your poems, as<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I don't understand poetry in English. And I could very
well think that a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>turtle-dove was a turtle of some special species...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Artur<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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font-family:Arial'>*<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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