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<DIV>Joelle, artur (and all too)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>do not be worried, the word "paper" has differents meanings as artur showed but "role" is used so frequently that I am almost sure that the brazilian people attending the event understood the confusion between what the translator did and what you was really intending to say and , possibly, smiled. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>lucy</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><I>-------Mensagem original-------</I></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=receivestrings>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>De:</B></I> <A href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Data:</B></I> Tuesday, July 15, 2003 19:48:30</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Para:</B></I> <A href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Assunto:</B></I> Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Hi Joelle and Lucy (and all)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Joelle wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>Artur-- (...)</DIV>
<DIV>>I was quite interested to observe that the Brazilians listed only roles of</DIV>
<DIV>>family and relationships. I suspect, that this is because family and</DIV>
<DIV>>interpersonal relationships are far more important in Latin cultures. But</DIV>
<DIV>>I also wonder</DIV>
<DIV>>if the word which was used to translate "roles," (I think something like</DIV>
<DIV>>"rolas," ) might have a more-specific meaning in Portugese, so the</DIV>
<DIV>>response might</DIV>
<DIV>>have been shaped by the word that was used. What do you think?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And Lucy replyied:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>joelle, the translation is really an important detail in any place of the</DIV>
<DIV>>word. really the bad translation of "role" transformed a word that means</DIV>
<DIV>>"paper" or "part of" (he plays the part of the monster) into a swearword</DIV>
<DIV>>used for some cheap persons speaking about penis. complicated, you see?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is really an amazing story about languages and translations. May I use</DIV>
<DIV>that story for other purposes and quote you both?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I would like to add some comments:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1. I have decided to wait for an eventual answer from Lucy, as I had the</DIV>
<DIV>idea that "rola" could have in Brasil this slang meaning, but I was not</DIV>
<DIV>sure. "rola" is indeed a white bird (turtle-dove, says my Dictionary) that</DIV>
<DIV>is used in slang Portugues to refer only to "female brests", but I was</DIV>
<DIV>almost sure of once hearing it in Brasil with the meaning Lucy clarified.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>2. This contains other lessons. Translators are often not very good,</DIV>
<DIV>especially if they don't know the subject they are trying to traslate. And</DIV>
<DIV>I have noticed often that, in such cases, they don't say "I can't translate</DIV>
<DIV>that". They will chose - especially in oral translation" - a "similar</DIV>
<DIV>word". In this case with devastating effects... I suposed that the</DIV>
<DIV>Brasilians, confused, tryed to give an answer... as they could... So, I</DIV>
<DIV>suspect your conclusion, was not necessarily correct, Joelle.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>3. But even if the translator knows the meaning of the word he/she can</DIV>
<DIV>often do a "correct</DIV>
<DIV>word-translation" that is still useless. "Role" translates into Portugues,</DIV>
<DIV>as Lucy pointed out, as "papél", plural "papéis" (the Spanish "papeles").</DIV>
<DIV>The point is that "papel" also means "paper", like in "a sheet of paper". I</DIV>
<DIV>wonder what the Brasilians would answer to this possibility, namely if they</DIV>
<DIV>were low class and never heard of "papeis" in this sense....</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>4. Contextual translation, done by someone that knows the subject, would</DIV>
<DIV>understant the what should be translated was not "roles" but "social roles"</DIV>
<DIV>giving "papéis sociais" that can not, of course, be confused with sheets of</DIV>
<DIV>papers.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>5. Now imagine what would happen if this was a conversation between an Arab</DIV>
<DIV>and a Juif mediated by an American President, with the help of a translator</DIV>
<DIV>without an "absolutely perfect knowledge" of BOTH languages. Terrible, I</DIV>
<DIV>suspect.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>6. My conclusion - if you era "broadcasting" or publishing a book, good</DIV>
<DIV>traslations can be useful</DIV>
<DIV>(like in the Brasilian translation of the User's Guide).. But to mediate</DIV>
<DIV>"conversations", translations are NEVER a replacement for bi-linguism.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>7: I think that people giving training in a foreign language in a different</DIV>
<DIV>country, when that training must be mediated by a translater, must always</DIV>
<DIV>ask very seriously what are the qualifications of the translator in the</DIV>
<DIV>subject of the training and not only the "translation qualification" in</DIV>
<DIV>other subjects.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>8. I am sure that I could do a good translation of English to Portuguese in</DIV>
<DIV>subjects like management or information systems. But I am affraid to</DIV>
<DIV>confess, Joelle, that I would be unable to transslate one of your poems, as</DIV>
<DIV>I don't understand poetry in English. And I could very well think that a</DIV>
<DIV>turtle-dove was a turtle of some special species...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Artur</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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