<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4>I have been reading the posts
that request that we go off this topic and on to others. I am willing -
and yet a piece of me knows that many people - perhaps most - will reference the
rest of life using 9/11 as zero point - so I am not sure that going of fthis
topic is completely possible. I also here Winston's inserts below very
loud and so clearly. I had awakened this a.m. with a desire to share
something with you and so, I am going to stay on this topic for this
post.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4>Obviously, we have all been
reading the war vs. peace words that each of us feels in our hearts - one way or
another. Each person feels what is true for him/her based on his/her own
frame of reference which is based on experience which is based on conditioning
which is based on the society that each one grew up in. Having said that,
I know and have proven to myself that we can go beyond that in our daily
lives. Case in point:</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4>When I lived in S.F. during
the 60's and 70's, I worked with an organization that patrolled the less
desirable parts of town talking with addicts of all types and letting them know
that we were running halfway houses for showers, food and beds. There was
no Christian conversion necessary, no meetings you had to attend (though we had
them and you could if you wanted to, yet nothing was mandatory) and no belief
system to buy into. </FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4>During this period, one
evening, I was walking with a companion through the Tenderloin (for those who do
not know S.F., know that the word speaks for itself) when a man appeared waving
a loaded gun, screaming, throwing around the bags of garbage left for the
sanitation department on the street and generally causing a great deal of fear
within this district. Of course, people were running, screaming and
generally expressing fear and anger. </FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4>I placed myself in the
deepest, most complete feeling of peace that I knew in my heart, extended my
open hand and began walking toward this man - fastening my gaze on his eyes
(when I could catch them) - and holding the knowing that he and I were One upon
this earth. By the time I got to him, he was simply standing there,
pointing the gun at me. I said, "Give me the gun." He said,
"Why?" I said, "Because I asked you to." He did. Gun in my
hand, clip removed, I asked him what was going on. He was quite drunk
(increasingly dangerous with a loaded gun), very upset and generally a
mess. He was having a fight with his wife who was hanging outside a window
above us yelling at him to come back in. </FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4>My companion and I talked with
him for some time, persuaded him that a wife who wanted you to come back
probably wanted to resolve the issues, at least he could give it a try, and, at
last, he decided that we might be right. I gave him his gun
back, minus the clip, and he went back upstairs.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4>I have mused often about this
event knowing that if just enough people had been agitated enough, it might have
agitated him more and the gun could easily have gone off - in what direction I
do not know.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4>I tell this story not because
I believe that asking the el Queda to turn over their weapons is necessarily
going to work (?), only to show that there are other ways to come to resolution
within a seemingly impossible situation. It takes knowing your own truth,
courage, peace in your heart and compassion for all - seeing each of us as a
cell in a much larger organism.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4>And so, I question whether
bombing them is the way - I question whether our ground troops have what it
takes to kill everyone in sight in the entire land of Afganistan since that is
going to be what it does take. The Taliban have lifted the ban on weapons
for the citizenry and everyone who has hidden a gun is bringing it out and
getting ready. As one old man said to a reporter - "We will fight until
the last man". Will anyone put their hand out to these
people?</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4>With peace in my heart, love
for mankind and a prayer that we do not easily walk away from this discussion
when it is exactly what those who wish to fight us are hoping
for,</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Garamond color=#800080 size=4>Toni</FONT></EM></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #800080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kinch@sympatico.ca href="mailto:kinch@sympatico.ca">Winston Kinch</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 27, 2001 6:29
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Turtle (way of warrior) -
who speaks for wolf? Intersticial riposte to long reply</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></I> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> [</SPAN>see
intersticial comments in parentheses below]</I></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">Mr.
Everett wrote in part:</P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR>I guess I'll take on your inquiry, who speaks for
wolf. I think on this list I'm likely of the wolf breed. In a
private interchange with Michael Hermann, re: Mr. Krauthammer's column that I
posted earlier, in which he wanted to clarify my views, I responded with the
following to the question "Where do you stand?" I have added one
sentence that I didn't think of before regarding the papal encyclical and a
clarification on the reading comment. </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">Dear
Michael,<BR><BR>Where do I stand? Open and free inquiry. Listening
to many sides, and all sides. Voltaire had it right---"I do not believe
in what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Asking all the possible questions as a
means for discovery [check; <U>all</U> the questions]. Openly
questioning the Convention Wisdom of this listserv that is heavily weighted to
those who expect a loving response to sway Mr. bin Laden and his murdering
followers [possible assumption and oversimplification? I for one have seen no
“voting” in this forum, only open discussion of the very questions - and
possible answers - that CNN and its ilk are not raising]. Good luck.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR>Mr. Krauthammer [a nom de plume, one hopes?] asks some very
important questions. We also need to ask some hard questions. Prudens
questio dimidium scientiae---to ask the proper question is half of knowing
[check; Socrates himself would agree]. Why are not the Imam's of Islam
the world over vigorously condemning the concept of suicide bombers as being
something out of Islam, as claimed by the fundamentalists? Why are they
so relatively quiet? Where are the equivalent of the Papal Encyclical or
the Ex Cathedra pronouncement condemning, unequivocally, with no obfuscation,
the actions of ALL suicide bombers as being nowhere in the teachings of Islam
[perhaps they are not infallible like he is when speaking “ex
Cathedra”?]. Where is the fatwa against suicide bombing of every
kind?<BR><BR>Are they going to be like the Christians and liberals in Germany
and the West, especially Britain, and including the USA, who stood silently by
while the Jews and Gypsies went to the gas chambers by the millions? Or,
like the gullible "liberals" who praised Stalin ("I have seen the future, and
it works") while he murdered millions of his own people? If we remain
silent, the very rocks will cry out, I think [check].<BR><BR>Might it be that
there is some truth to the general population's belief that Islam isn't
necessarily a peaceful religion, not really benign, with respect for those who
do not belong to their religion [oh, you mean like Christianity?].
Certainly not benign, or good, for women, even in the "liberal" Islamic
countries. That maybe the<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>fundamentalists of Islam have it right, that violence is tolerated by
their religion? Or, advocated if it is against the Infidels?
Infidel, that's me, for sure, don't know about you or your religious
leanings. None of my business [check].<BR><BR>You might think that I'm a
radical rightist. Far, far from it. I see myself as a fairly
steely-eyed realist with a soft heart for the downtrodden of [American?]
humanity. I believe the people of the US are sick, ill at heart, from
their wealth. Their materialism (may) be their downfall, imho.
There is the iron law of responsibility---to those who have been given much,
of them will much be required [or how about: “I have seen the enemy and it is
us”?]. We don't understand that yet, except for a very few [maybe even
some on this list]. Maybe Sept. 11th is the needed wake-up call
[maybe!]?</P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR>We build billion dollar stadiums with public tax money to
watch over-paid children play sports while our streets teem with the
desperately poor, without hope or real help. We pay our teachers, the
shapers of the future, niggardly salaries and don't demand enough of them or
our children (I'm not a teacher, I'm a business consultant). We produce
25% illiterates or functional illiterates (that's for reading---the numbers
are far worse for math, not to mention critical thinking) from our school
system and don't look to see that there are much better ways to educate
children (I use a system of teaching reading for my clients who have many
illiterates in their employ that is 99.5% successful in teaching anyone to
read as fluently as they talk---and I mean anyone, no matter what they have
been "diagnosed" as having---dyslexia, adhd, mental slowness, etc., at the
rate of 1 grade level gained per 10 hours of tutoring, which is 10x faster
than the usual program). We can't seem to figure out how people can get
a modicum of medical care while our governments and insurance companies are
busy destroying the best medical care in the world. (The stories my
brother, an MD, can tell you would make you weep.) Very
disheartening.<BR><BR>Anyway, I don't want to get into an argument with you,
[oh] or a jeremiad [nice word!]. I posted that column because I thought
it had some points of view we'd better pay attention to if we are to figure
this whole thing out and move accordingly. We need to know the real
position of the Islamic clerics and leaders of the world. The real
position of Islam for we non-believers.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>I think they'd better start speaking up. Freedom, in all [check,
all] it's ramifications, is far, far too precious to be lost or cloaked under
the blanket of PC [personal computers? persecution
complexes?].<BR><BR>Sincerely,<BR><BR>Paul Everett<BR><BR>Today, I would add
that we need to do both, stop the terrorists by force [why necessarily by
force?] AND to begin an even greater effort to win over [interesting term:
“win over”] the minds and hearts of the people of the nations that are
currently harboring terrorists bent on our destruction. Make no mistake,
that is their goal, the downfall of the West, because they despise our values,
including those of freedom of religion, assembly, press, speaking out,
petition, etc., contained in the Bill of Rights [interesting identification
of “we” and “the West”]. It makes for an immoral society, in their
view, one that must be destroyed. Especially it makes for an immoral
society for women. (Are you women on this listserv listening and
observing what is really going on?) For those of you doubting their
intention, you haven't been listening or watching, as we didn't listen to
Hitler in Mein Kampf or Lenin in his writings, to our great sorrow. We'd
better listen and act now [check].<BR><BR>Below is another too-strong piece
that has a substantial element of truth in it. He, unfortunately, does
not bring up the way of inclusion for those not bent on our destruction, but
that is not his mission in this piece. He is speaking only of the
terrorists and the pacifists. Many of you won't like his writing [check]
but I can assure you, being out in the work world with folks who get things
done, build things, dig trenches, haul garbage, clean sewers and make things,
they are on his side and not the side of those on this listserv, in general
[so the folks on this list don’t live in the “work world”? Is work to be
defined as physical only?). That's what the Gallup poll numbers mean. I
doubt we will allow another WTO- or Mardi Gras-like riot in Seattle.
They will be crushed [hmm, while expressing their freedom of speech and
assembly?].</P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">I
also can't any longer carry my nail clipper or pocket knife I've carried for
30 years when flying. My freedom is being further compromised but I'll
deal with it rather than allow terrorists to kill at will.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>What we must resist is turning the US
into a police state [see previous comment re “crushing”]. We must also
resist and destroy terrorists and those governments and leaders harboring
them, physically, where they live [one sure is glad that McVeigh and
friends didn’t do it]. To fail to do that is to fail our future.
That is my position.<BR><BR>Paul Everett</P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT> </P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>