[OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Lucas Cioffi
Katherine Jennings
forcetwolove at gmail.com
Mon Jan 31 06:08:18 PST 2022
shalom
In all of my getting I found it helpful to get understanding. There is a
phrase found in the rooms of NA
More and more shall be revealed. Teaching, leading, transforming and
growing takes work.
In all my getting I have learned to seek some understanding by asking
questions and observing.
Am I where I want to be? so I am here with an open mind and the discipline
to be compassionate as well as certain about my vulnerability.
May we take a moment to consider and reconsider.
Take a breath.
respectfully
Lovingly
K. Sweetness Jennings
On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 10:28 PM Mark Carmel via OSList <
oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> Lucas, do you see yourself in this quote? Are you being a hater? Too?
> ... The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those
> who speak it...--George Orwell ...
>
> To answer your question, can I commit to no name calling? You accused me
> of: derogatory name calling. I guess it depends on what the definition of
> derogatory is. Right? I ask you, If something is TRUE is it derogatory? I
> simply made a post - super respectfully - sharing an opposing viewpoint
> from someone else and ended up being hated on, (using the term of modern
> slang... https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hater ) and was
> told to hush up and get lost, called a bully, called a lot of names... like
> now, being called derogatory, by you Lucas. So if someone is hating on me
> - for sharing a thought, from others - (on this list - that is what? the
> most open forum in the world?) and I call them a hater, who is being
> derogatory, me or them? So to answer your question in this context: Hell
> NO!
>
> Lucas, are you the Leader of this list? Now that I said no what are you
> going to do, kick me out of the club? This is why I said honestly I will
> think twice about posting opposing views here again, to keep haters (like
> you) off my back.
>
> Cheers! And nice work on your software. Perhaps a new tool could be
> incorporated called the law of two eyes: if you don't like what you see,
> look the other way - rather than react in a derogatory way - Stay Away from
> the Tocqueville Trap today...
>
> Seriously,
> All the Best!
>
> MC
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 2:58 PM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>
> wrote:
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
>> 2. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (paul levy)
>> 3. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Marc C. Trudeau)
>> 4. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (koos at auryn.nl)
>> 5. Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Amanda Bucklow and Michael
>> Pannwitz (Mark Carmel)
>> 6. Mark, can you commit to not calling anyone a disparaging name
>> again? (Lucas Cioffi)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 15:42:40 -0700
>> From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> To: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>> Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>, Koos de Heer <koos at auryn.nl>
>> Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAFDvDFgynt2bD725CLcN1B=6NXnZdQA=Fj5bGk=
>> jCJU4+j0NgA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
>> interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
>>
>> I took special notice of the line:
>> ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and nonspecific
>> symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill...
>>
>> It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of a
>> sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to
>> start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But oh
>> no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right there
>> in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of
>> paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to local
>> docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide from
>> your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray
>> chemical
>> cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything you
>> touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.
>> Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you
>> should
>> do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do
>> nothing
>> and wait until they cant breathe literally call the undertaker as they
>> pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing now during
>> this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works... The moment
>> you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot salt
>> water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
>>
>> I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points reference,
>> Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it
>> proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to do
>> so,
>> but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
>> understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as
>> open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's opinion.
>> Here is that great point:
>>
>> ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
>> Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
>> opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a
>> great
>> ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion
>> forms,
>> it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
>> dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday
>> life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
>> the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville, like
>> James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
>> which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
>> divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
>> it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
>> (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start with).
>> The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts and
>> actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
>>
>> ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens in
>> a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
>> definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
>> Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
>> opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
>> though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people
>> who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves
>> ...tormented
>> by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
>> wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
>> those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest
>> they should be shunned in their turn...
>>
>> In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no
>> surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as Tocqueville
>> pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion, and we begin
>> to
>> experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in failing the
>> purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do
>> this
>> even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with
>> realistic
>> fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those with
>> whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who
>> need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
>> A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking about
>> what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST. Here in
>> context of public health.
>>
>> June 2021 Gallup
>> <
>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx
>> >
>> poll
>> found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those choosing
>> not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of social
>> distancing
>> in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources and supplies
>> (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).? True to
>> the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust, even hatred,
>> of those who?because they believe or act differently?are now perceived as
>> threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto Star*, my local
>> newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy left for
>> the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
>>
>> In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the person
>> quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost:
>> empathy,
>> or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en masse,
>> the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must be
>> a
>> group effort.
>>
>> As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
>> liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different
>> places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but
>> switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient, is
>> reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
>> least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get
>> more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
>> government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their
>> own,
>> a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually generates
>> resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments of
>> the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees the
>> need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach
>> itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should not
>> simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own
>> leadership?that they should double-down on their responsibility to
>> generate
>> trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is not to
>> crush, but to better engage.
>>
>> In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and neuroscience
>> writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to
>> understand
>> those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about COVID-deniers
>> or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it
>> about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from the
>> corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
>> hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but *also*
>> anxious
>> about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet vaccinated
>> for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are often more
>> anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect. They
>> are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with job
>> loss and other restrictions.
>>
>> One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine hesitant in
>> order to learn something from them and about them, and about society as a
>> whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues
>> than
>> the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and institutions
>> involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug
>> regulatory
>> process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is not
>> simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in the wider
>> systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at the speed of
>> trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our public
>> health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more
>> effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it must be
>> rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the majority.
>>
>> Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE! IF the
>> world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
>> humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would be
>> Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas in
>> the World.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
>> > I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered
>> conversation.
>> >
>> > The best example I have seen so far,
>> > of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
>> > viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
>> > is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
>> >
>> > I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
>> > apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on neuroplasticity.
>> > Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
>> >
>> > And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
>> >
>> > all best wishes,
>> >
>> > Rosaa
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > * <http://diapraxis.com>*
>> > *Rosa Zubizarreta *
>> > *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
>> > <http://diapraxis.com>*
>> > *coaching in participatory leadership *
>> > *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities*
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Dear Mark,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but
>> >> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
>> >> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text
>> you
>> >> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
>> >> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you
>> >> post it in the first place?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool
>> of
>> >> himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
>> >> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Koos
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *Van:* OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> *Namens *Mark
>> >> Carmel via OSList
>> >> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
>> >> *Aan:* John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>> >> *CC:* Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>; World wide Open Space
>> >> Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> >> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I agree with you John...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
>> >> political agenda belongs on this list.
>> >>
>> >> Sent from John's iPhone
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> >> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ?
>> >>
>> >> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
>> >> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
>> thought...
>> >> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>> >>
>> >> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
>> my
>> >> life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
>> >> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
>> >> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask
>> and
>> >> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
>> >> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
>> vaccination. I
>> >> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
>> >> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
>> >> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
>> >> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
>> >> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
>> >> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
>> allow a
>> >> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I
>> listed
>> >> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
>> >> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
>> >> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except
>> IMMUNIZATION. If
>> >> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we
>> still
>> >> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
>> >> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>> >> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come
>> to
>> >> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
>> >> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
>> >> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate
>> vaccine, it
>> >> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
>> >> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
>> INJECTION,
>> >> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
>> CONTROL
>> >> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
>> >> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE
>> >> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
>> SCRIPTURE
>> >> for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by
>> those
>> >> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>> >>
>> >> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>> >> those who speak it...--George Orwell
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> MC the MC
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> OSList mailing list
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>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 23:33:02 +0000
>> From: paul levy <paul at cats3000.net>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Cc: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>, Mark Carmel
>> <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAAnJsbA_UMg5NCdYzKiySO1r-xN8JXR794Xwj-wRej5AF=
>> C3mA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> I still say the vaccinating at Top Shop was a rather jolly affair.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022, 22:42 Mark Carmel via OSList, <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
>> > interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
>> >
>> > I took special notice of the line:
>> > ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and
>> nonspecific
>> > symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill...
>> >
>> > It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of a
>> > sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to
>> > start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But oh
>> > no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right
>> there
>> > in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of
>> > paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to
>> local
>> > docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide from
>> > your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray
>> chemical
>> > cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything
>> you
>> > touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.
>> > Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you
>> should
>> > do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do
>> nothing
>> > and wait until they cant breathe literally call the undertaker as they
>> > pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing now during
>> > this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works... The
>> moment
>> > you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot salt
>> > water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
>> >
>> > I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points reference,
>> > Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it
>> > proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to do
>> so,
>> > but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
>> > understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as
>> > open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's
>> opinion.
>> > Here is that great point:
>> >
>> > ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
>> > Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
>> > opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a
>> great
>> > ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion
>> forms,
>> > it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
>> > dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in
>> everyday
>> > life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
>> > the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville,
>> like
>> > James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
>> > which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
>> > divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
>> > it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
>> > (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start
>> with).
>> > The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts
>> and
>> > actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
>> >
>> > ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens
>> in
>> > a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
>> > definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
>> > Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
>> > opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
>> > though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level,
>> people
>> > who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves
>> ...tormented
>> > by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
>> > wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
>> > those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too,
>> lest
>> > they should be shunned in their turn...
>> >
>> > In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no
>> > surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as
>> Tocqueville
>> > pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion, and we begin
>> > to experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in failing
>> the
>> > purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do
>> this
>> > even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with
>> realistic
>> > fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those with
>> > whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who
>> > need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
>> > A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking
>> about
>> > what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST. Here in
>> > context of public health.
>> >
>> > June 2021 Gallup
>> > <
>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx>
>> poll
>> > found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those
>> choosing
>> > not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of social
>> distancing
>> > in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources and
>> supplies
>> > (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).? True
>> to
>> > the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust, even
>> hatred,
>> > of those who?because they believe or act differently?are now perceived
>> as
>> > threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto Star*, my
>> > local newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy
>> left
>> > for the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
>> >
>> > In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the
>> person
>> > quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost:
>> empathy,
>> > or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en
>> masse,
>> > the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must
>> be a
>> > group effort.
>> >
>> > As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
>> > liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different
>> > places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but
>> > switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient,
>> is
>> > reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
>> > least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get
>> > more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
>> > government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their
>> own,
>> > a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually
>> generates
>> > resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments
>> of
>> > the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees
>> the
>> > need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach
>> > itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should not
>> > simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own
>> > leadership?that they should double-down on their responsibility to
>> generate
>> > trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is not to
>> > crush, but to better engage.
>> >
>> > In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and
>> neuroscience
>> > writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to
>> understand
>> > those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about
>> COVID-deniers
>> > or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it
>> > about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from
>> the
>> > corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
>> > hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but *also*
>> anxious
>> > about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet
>> vaccinated
>> > for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are often
>> more
>> > anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect. They
>> > are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with job
>> > loss and other restrictions.
>> >
>> > One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine hesitant
>> in
>> > order to learn something from them and about them, and about society as
>> a
>> > whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues
>> than
>> > the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and
>> institutions
>> > involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug
>> regulatory
>> > process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is
>> not
>> > simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in the wider
>> > systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at the speed
>> of
>> > trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our
>> public
>> > health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more
>> > effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it must
>> be
>> > rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the
>> majority.
>> >
>> > Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE! IF
>> the
>> > world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
>> > humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would
>> be
>> > Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas
>> in
>> > the World.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
>> >> I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered
>> conversation.
>> >>
>> >> The best example I have seen so far,
>> >> of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
>> >> viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
>> >> is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
>> >>
>> >> I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
>> >> apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on
>> neuroplasticity.
>> >> Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
>> >>
>> >> And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
>> >>
>> >> all best wishes,
>> >>
>> >> Rosaa
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> * <http://diapraxis.com>*
>> >> *Rosa Zubizarreta *
>> >> *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
>> >> <http://diapraxis.com>*
>> >> *coaching in participatory leadership *
>> >> *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities*
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
>> >> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Dear Mark,
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words
>> but
>> >>> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
>> >>> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text
>> you
>> >>> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
>> >>> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do
>> you
>> >>> post it in the first place?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool
>> >>> of himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
>> >>> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Koos
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> *Van:* OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> *Namens *Mark
>> >>> Carmel via OSList
>> >>> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
>> >>> *Aan:* John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>> >>> *CC:* Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>; World wide Open Space
>> >>> Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> >>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree with you John...
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
>> >>> political agenda belongs on this list.
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from John's iPhone
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> >>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> ?
>> >>>
>> >>> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
>> >>> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
>> thought...
>> >>> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>> >>>
>> >>> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
>> >>> my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
>> >>> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
>> >>> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask
>> and
>> >>> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
>> >>> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
>> vaccination. I
>> >>> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
>> >>> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
>> >>> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
>> >>> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
>> >>> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
>> >>> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
>> allow a
>> >>> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I
>> listed
>> >>> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
>> >>> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric
>> tightens?
>> >>> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except
>> IMMUNIZATION. If
>> >>> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we
>> still
>> >>> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we
>> still
>> >>> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>> >>> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come
>> to
>> >>> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived...
>> I
>> >>> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
>> >>> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate
>> vaccine, it
>> >>> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
>> >>> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
>> INJECTION,
>> >>> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
>> CONTROL
>> >>> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet
>> has
>> >>> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY,
>> ONE
>> >>> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
>> SCRIPTURE
>> >>> for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by
>> those
>> >>> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>> >>>
>> >>> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>> >>> those who speak it...--George Orwell
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> MC the MC
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> OSList mailing list
>> >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> OSList mailing list
>> >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:37:25 +0000
>> From: "Marc C. Trudeau" <marctrudeau at alum.wpi.edu>
>> To: "OSList (email to post)" <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> Message-ID: <E1F7AA9E-56F9-494E-B7FA-D70AF7255CC5 at alum.wpi.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> I observe that this topic is incredibly triggering for all of us,
>> everyone, me included. (It?s not news to this group that the structures and
>> institutions that served us in the industrial age are not coping well with
>> the complexities of today.) I?m drawn to ask myself, what?s the
>> common/universal thread? Is it that this pandemic (and possible climate
>> collapse, on its heels) have every one of us feeling completely powerless
>> for the first time in recent memory? The last huge pandemic was ~1920.
>> Elders who remember the global conflagration that was WWII are nearly all
>> gone.
>>
>> Who are the most experienced/expert in living in powerlessness? What can
>> we learn from them?
>>
>> Peace and love,
>>
>> Marc
>>
>>
>>
>> Marc Trudeau
>> mobile 774-641-8302
>>
>> LikeBreathin.com<http://LikeBreathin.com>
>>
>> [cid:2EB09BBC-1735-4700-ACEC-73F6D1DDD1F7]
>>
>> Effective teamwork and team leadership feel nearly effortless, Like
>> Breathin??. Partner with us to experience how.
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 21:18:29 +0100
>> From: <koos at auryn.nl>
>> To: "'Mark Carmel'" <markacarmel at gmail.com>, "'Rosa Zubizarreta'"
>> <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>> Cc: "'World wide Open Space Technology email list'"
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> Message-ID: <02e801d80fcd$389634f0$a9c29ed0$@auryn.nl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> There is one point you seem to miss, Mark. The fact that the author
>> understands and explains a phenomenon, does not mean he supports it. The
>> fact that the authorities are clumsy in their ways of coercion, does not
>> mean that the behavior they are trying to promote is wrong. The author is
>> not against vaccination, on the contrary. The whole point of the piece is
>> about short-sighted change management and has very little to do with Covid,
>> which is just an example in a much bigger picture he is painting. The way
>> you are twisting this into an anti-vax argument is creative, but wrong.
>>
>>
>>
>> Van: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> Verzonden: vrijdag 21 januari 2022 23:43
>> Aan: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>> CC: World wide Open Space Technology email list <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>; Koos de Heer <koos at auryn.nl>
>> Onderwerp: Who is BS-ing Whom?
>>
>>
>>
>> Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
>> interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
>>
>>
>>
>> I took special notice of the line:
>>
>> ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and nonspecific
>> symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill...
>>
>>
>>
>> It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of a
>> sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to
>> start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But oh
>> no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right there
>> in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of
>> paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to local
>> docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide from
>> your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray chemical
>> cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything you
>> touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.
>> Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you should
>> do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do nothing
>> and wait until they cant breathe literally call the undertaker as they
>> pull out a pistol and shoot themselves.
>> Suicide skyrocketing now during this disease. My solution is simple and
>> better and it works... The moment you feel a runny nose or sore throat,
>> cough, etc., gargle with hot salt water and rinse your nose with a saline
>> rinse...bye bye bugs...!
>>
>>
>>
>> I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points reference,
>> Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it
>> proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to do so,
>> but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
>> understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as
>> open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's opinion.
>> Here is that great point:
>>
>>
>>
>> ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
>> Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
>> opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a great
>> ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion forms,
>> it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
>> dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday
>> life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
>> the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville, like
>> James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
>> which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
>> divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
>> it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
>> (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start with).
>> The majority overtaking the minority could mean s
>> tamping out thoughts and actions that would otherwise generate progress
>> and forward movement...
>>
>> ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens
>> in a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
>> definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
>> Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
>> opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
>> though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people
>> who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves ...tormented
>> by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
>> wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
>> those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest
>> they should be shunned in their turn...
>>
>> In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no
>> surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as Tocqueville
>> pointed out, this also occurs when there is no contagion, and we begin to
>> experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in failing the
>> purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do this
>> even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with realistic
>> fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those with
>> whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who
>> need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
>>
>> A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking
>> about what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST. Here in
>> context of public health.
>>
>>
>>
>> June 2021 <
>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx>
>> Gallup poll found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about
>> those choosing not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of
>> social distancing in their area (27%), availability of local hospital
>> resources and supplies (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in
>> their area (5%).? True to the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing
>> into disgust, even hatred, of those who?because they believe or act
>> differently?are now perceived as threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story
>> in the Toronto Star, my local newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying:
>> ...I have no empathy left for the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
>>
>> In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the
>> person quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost:
>> empathy, or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en
>> masse, the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this
>> must be a group effort.
>>
>> As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
>> liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different
>> places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but
>> switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient, is
>> reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
>> least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get
>> more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
>> government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their own,
>> a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually generates
>> resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments of
>> the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees the
>> need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach
>> itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should not
>> simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in t
>> heir own leadership?that they should double-down on their responsibility
>> to generate trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is
>> not to crush, but to better engage.
>>
>> In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and
>> neuroscience writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily,
>> to understand those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about
>> COVID-deniers or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds.
>> Nor is it about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit
>> from the corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the
>> vaccine hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but also
>> anxious about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet
>> vaccinated for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are
>> often more anchored in history and experience than the majority would
>> suspect. They are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is
>> threatening with job loss and other restrictions.
>>
>> One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine hesitant
>> in order to learn something from them and about them, and about society as
>> a whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues
>> than the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and
>> institutions involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the
>> drug regulatory process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine
>> hesitancy is not simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith
>> in the wider systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at
>> the speed of trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want
>> our public health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that
>> more effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it
>> must be rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the
>> majority.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE! IF the
>> world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
>> humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would be
>> Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas in
>> the World.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com
>> <mailto:rosa at diapraxis.com> > wrote:
>>
>> Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
>>
>> I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered conversation.
>>
>>
>>
>> The best example I have seen so far,
>>
>> of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
>> viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
>>
>> is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
>>
>> apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on neuroplasticity.
>>
>> Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
>>
>>
>>
>> And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
>>
>>
>>
>> all best wishes,
>>
>>
>>
>> Rosaa
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Rosa Zubizarreta
>>
>> <http://diapraxis.com> DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative
>> Collaboration
>> coaching in participatory leadership
>> advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> >
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Mark,
>>
>>
>>
>> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>>
>>
>>
>> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but
>> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
>> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text you
>> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
>> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you
>> post it in the first place?
>>
>>
>>
>> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool of
>> himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
>>
>>
>>
>> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
>> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>>
>>
>>
>> Koos
>>
>>
>>
>> Van: OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
>> oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> > Namens Mark Carmel via OSList
>> Verzonden: donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
>> Aan: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com> >
>> CC: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com> >;
>> World wide Open Space Technology email list <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> >
>> Onderwerp: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with you John...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:
>> johnw536 at mac.com> > wrote:
>>
>> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
>> political agenda belongs on this list.
>>
>> Sent from John's iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> >
>> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>
>> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
>> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought...
>> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>>
>> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in my
>> life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
>> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
>> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
>> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
>> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
>> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
>> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
>> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
>> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
>> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
>> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a
>> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
>> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates, di
>> vides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
>> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION. If
>> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
>> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
>> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
>> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
>> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
>> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate vaccine, it
>> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
>> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an INJECTION,
>> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
>> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
>> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONO
>> MY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
>> SCRIPTURE for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design
>> by those whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>>
>> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>> those who speak it...--George Orwell
>>
>>
>>
>> MC the MC
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 13:24:36 -0700
>> From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Amanda Bucklow and
>> Michael Pannwitz
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> CAFDvDFiM_VE+UYNHvNa5qPgtG0rzbmUvtdMLmm5gFeD_pxdbiQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> To Amanda Bucklow,
>> Thanks for your feedback. You fell right into what I will call the
>> TocquevilleTRAP that is outlined in the thoughtful link provided by Rosa
>> Zubizarreta on Needle Points (Thanks again Rosa!). Please allow me to
>> take
>> on your hit piece, Amanda, point by point.
>>
>> But first I want to thank and commend Michael Pannwitz for your response!
>> You hit on points which i believe are profoundly wise. And thank you for
>> the story of Harrison getting his great book -The Practice of Peace -
>> published.
>>
>> Fascinating Michael! You said Harrison's publisher rejected the book.
>> Amanda, what if Harrison did what he was told (as you told me), to hush up
>> - ...change the subject... and as Koos told me, to get lost and ... PLEASE
>> go play somewhere else...? Well I guess we may not have the genius of Open
>> Space Technology if Harrison would have taken no for an answer and allowed
>> others to silence him and cancel his book of discoveries. Thanks Harrison
>> not giving up or giving in to your critics!
>> ________________
>>
>> Michael Pannwitz, you said:
>> They (Harrison's publisher) felt it didn't fit into their program... this
>> was
>> not the end of the book....What happened?
>>
>> ... In no time flat the book was printed and distributed and later also
>> translated by folks in 8 countries around the globe in North America,
>> Europe, near and far Asia (from the European point of view), Australia,
>> the Caribic ...
>>
>> Harrison called this phenomenon the "Global Chaordic Publication".
>>
>> It is the string "Who is BS-ing Whom?" that instantly fired up my
>> synapses which resurfaced this phehomenon... and my thoughts later on.
>>
>> Mulling over the current pandemic lets me wonder what incited the worst
>> pandemic on the globe.
>> Not surprising myself in any serious fashion I felt it is us ouselves...
>> like the creature in Pogo looking in a mirror seeing his enemy, see here
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_have_met_the_enemy
>>
>> And what is it, at the core, that causes this disaster? Which virus is
>> that? What is the name of the disease this virus creates?
>> How about "control", the only real enemy of "selforganisation".
>> And who is best at controlling.
>> Yep, us.
>>
>> What was the impedement to publishing "The Practice of Peace"? What
>> hindered an established, mainstream and well known publisher to turn
>> down a book from an author that had a vision?
>>
>> ... If we start controlling OSLIST it will lose its meaning...
>>
>> Thanks again Michael for this profound wisdom, making two top tier points:
>> That the name of the REAL disease the Virus has caused is: CONTROL....
>> and,
>> that:
>> ...control of the OS list will lose its meaning...
>> __________________
>>
>> Amanda, you said the following which i will respond to point by point:
>>
>> ...One of the most important things about respectful disagreement is
>> congruence and consistency. I notice the following in your response to
>> Koos:
>>
>> I said I did not agree with the posted comments.
>> I guess you feel the vaccine works as promised despite all the deaths we
>> continue to see... good for you.
>> I have had covid twice, initial round and omicron and killed it with table
>> salt in 4 days.
>>
>> I am happy to engage in respectful disagreement with those who are willing
>> to be called out on their mental models and I am calling you out, Mark, on
>> your manipulative arguments which will definitely feel like bullying to
>> those who find inconsistency and flip-flopping deeply disrespectful.
>>
>> Please change the subject because this is going nowhere in terms of
>> learning and appreciation. It certainly does not acknowledge the grief and
>> loss of those who couldn?t kill the virus with ?table salt? in 4 days.
>> ______________
>> OK, Amanda you are calling me out on my ...mental model... and want me to
>> change the subject because it has no learning and appreciation, and that I
>> fail to acknowledge the grief and loss of those who couldnt kill the virus
>> in 4 days using table salt? You call me a bully, and accuse me of being
>> disrespectful, a flip flopper and inconsistent? Wow, that is quite a pro
>> hit piece wrapped in intellectual language of a mediator. Impressive take
>> down attempt. Well, now i am calling you out. First, NO MA'AM, I will
>> not change the subject nor go away and play somewhere else as Koos
>> directed
>> me. You fell right into the Tocqueville trap of seeking to silence, censor
>> and send away those who disagree with your opinions, or as you put it your
>> ...mental model... You want to kick me out of the club, right? I offered
>> an alternative to doing nothing to kill the virus if one becomes sick out
>> of immense feelings i have to acknowledge the grief and loss by those who
>> could not kill the virus and who died or got gravely I'll. Like a lot of
>> my
>> friends. To me you are the one being disingenuous and deeply
>> disrespectful
>> by saying that Amanda. And I hope you too look in the mirror to see
>> yourself as an open space facilitator seeking to close down a conversation
>> by insult. If you did see value in the conversation, perhaps learning and
>> saving lives would result in your circle of influence. And as I alluded
>> as
>> one of my motives, to help people who facilit8 OST to be more keenly aware
>> of keeping out of the Tocqueville Trap... Here is the quote again from
>> the
>> Needle Points piece Rosa shared. I Respectfully request you read it along
>> with the rest of the link Rosa provided. Again I thank you for your
>> feedback regardless of how wrong and offensive I find it to be. I did say
>> I
>> agree with John in part to keep haters (like you) off my back and to
>> enlighten us facilitators (by the way, I love your handle: Facilit8).. I
>> wish you wellness and hope and trust you see now Amanda how you fell into
>> the Tocqueville Trap:
>>
>> One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
>> Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
>> opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a
>> great
>> ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion
>> forms,
>> it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
>> dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday
>> life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
>> the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville, like
>> James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
>> which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
>> divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
>> it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
>> (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start with).
>> The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts and
>> actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
>>
>> ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens in
>> a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
>> definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
>> Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
>> opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
>> though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people
>> who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves
>> ...tormented
>> by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
>> wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
>> those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest
>> they should be shunned in their turn...
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville
>>
>> I apologize and am sorry for offending anyone with the opposing viewpoint
>> I
>> posted and my comments that followed. Please don't kick me out of the
>> club...
>>
>> Respectfully Submitted with Congruence, Consistency, and Honesty wishing
>> Peace of Mind to ALL you Peacemakers.
>> MC
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 2:35 PM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Send OSList mailing list submissions to
>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > oslist-owner at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
>> > 2. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (John Watkins)
>> > 3. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
>> > 4. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
>> > 5. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Michael M Pannwitz)
>> > 6. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (john watkins)
>> > 7. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (paul levy)
>> > 8. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (koos at auryn.nl)
>> > 9. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
>> > 10. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Amanda Bucklow)
>> > 11. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Rosa Zubizarreta)
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:35:06 -0700
>> > From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <CAFDvDFhpP-VkN=
>> > XZuY1QK7EJcn_cuz+qAb1QqQkT4szp9DPFpg at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
>> here
>> > is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought...
>> that
>> > I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>> >
>> > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
>> my
>> > life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
>> > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
>> > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
>> > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
>> > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination.
>> I
>> > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
>> > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
>> > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
>> > never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
>> > colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
>> > livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
>> allow a
>> > 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I
>> listed
>> > above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
>> > divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
>> > It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION.
>> If
>> > we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
>> > need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
>> > need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>> > hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
>> > ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
>> > have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
>> > ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate
>> vaccine, it
>> > is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
>> > something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
>> INJECTION,
>> > which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
>> CONTROL
>> > of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
>> > been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE
>> > WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE
>> > for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by
>> those
>> > whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>> >
>> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>> those
>> > who speak it...--George Orwell
>> >
>> > MC the MC
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL: <
>> >
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220120/a115fea0/attachment-0001.html
>> > >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:38:52 -0800
>> > From: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > Cc: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> > Message-ID: <45F81129-84C3-4B38-93AB-7B672AEC4CB9 at mac.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
>> > political agenda belongs on this list.
>> >
>> > Sent from John's iPhone
>> >
>> > > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > ?
>> > > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
>> > here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
>> thought...
>> > that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>> > >
>> > > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
>> > my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
>> > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
>> > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
>> > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
>> > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination.
>> I
>> > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
>> > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
>> > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
>> > never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
>> > colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
>> > livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
>> allow a
>> > 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I
>> listed
>> > above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
>> > divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
>> > It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION.
>> If
>> > we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
>> > need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
>> > need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>> > hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
>> > ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
>> > have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
>> > ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate
>> vaccine, it
>> > is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
>> > something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
>> INJECTION,
>> > which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
>> CONTROL
>> > of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
>> > been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECO
>> > NOMY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies
>> in
>> > SCRIPTURE for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by
>> design
>> > by those whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>> > >
>> > > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>> > those who speak it...--George Orwell
>> > >
>> > > MC the MC
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > OSList mailing list
>> > > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL: <
>> >
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220120/e9aae0ba/attachment-0001.html
>> > >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:49:35 -0700
>> > From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> > To: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>> > Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <
>> > CAFDvDFg97hGa0KPZQnYf+yRZoztHpiLKzW_H4HTmj-XLVSfMcQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>> those
>> > who speak it...--George Orwell
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
>> > > political agenda belongs on this list.
>> > >
>> > > Sent from John's iPhone
>> > >
>> > > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> > > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > ?
>> > > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
>> > > here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
>> > thought...
>> > > that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>> > >
>> > > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known
>> in my
>> > > life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
>> > > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
>> > > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask
>> and
>> > > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
>> > > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
>> vaccination. I
>> > > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
>> > > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
>> > > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
>> > > never seen a vaccine t
>
> _______________________________________________
> OSList mailing list
> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> Past archives can be viewed here:
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