[OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Lucas Cioffi

Sun Jan 23 03:29:12 PST 2022

Michael, you are always very welcome in Brighton and Hove! I could show you the famous Top Shop venue Paul mentioned. It would make a perfect venue for an Open Space event.

Blessings to you.

Amanda

Amanda Bucklow
Independent Commercial Mediator

 http://AmandaBucklow.co.uk 
  +44 7976 924995
 linkedin.com/in/amanda-bucklow

This e-mail may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message and any attachments without retaining a copy.

> On 23 Jan 2022, at 04:39, Michael Herman via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> 
> i'm not sure if lucas can put you off the list or not, mark.  i know i can, but i'm not going to do that.  at least not today.
> 
> at the same time, i'm reading your posts wondering what you were hoping to learn when you posted.  or what you thought you were contributing.  what does this have to do with why we're here on the oslist?
> 
> there's nothing wrong with bringing what you suspect might be an opposing viewpoint.  in 25 years on this list, we've had plenty of disagreements, but i don't recall anyone calling folks haters, as you have here.  when you set disagree=hate, that closes the space.  nobody can disagree or they are horrible, hating people.  that turns an opposing viewpoint into an oppressing viewpoint.  if the challenging view was about open space, maybe we'd have to go there.  or maybe not even then.  
> 
> can you bring this conversation back around to open space?  that is, after all, why we're here.  we have a purpose.  that's what makes this space and every open space gathering work.  or maybe we just let it go for now?
> 
> when anything goes, on a listserv, everyone goes.  let's not go there!  we have something to take care of here. 
> 
> thanks to all who've weighed in on this thread.  i've learned that from now on, i should get all my jabs in brighton.
> 
> michael
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> --
> 
> Michael Herman
> Michael Herman Associates
> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
> 
> MichaelHerman.com <http://michaelherman.com/>
> OpenSpaceWorld.org <http://openspaceworld.org/>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 8:28 PM Mark Carmel via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> Lucas, do you see yourself in this quote?  Are you being a hater? Too?
> ... The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it...--George Orwell ...
> 
>  To answer your question, can I commit to no name calling?  You accused me of: derogatory name calling.   I guess it depends on what the definition of derogatory is. Right? I ask you, If something is TRUE is it derogatory? I simply made a post - super respectfully - sharing an opposing viewpoint from someone else and ended up being hated on, (using the term of modern slang... https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hater <https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hater> ) and was told to hush up and get lost, called a bully, called a lot of names... like now, being called derogatory, by you Lucas.  So if someone is hating on me - for sharing a thought, from others - (on this list - that is what? the most open forum in the world?) and I call them a hater, who is being derogatory, me or them? So to answer your question in this context: Hell NO! 
> 
> Lucas, are you the Leader of this list? Now that I said no what are you going to do, kick me out of the club? This is why I said honestly I will think twice about posting opposing views here again, to keep haters (like you) off my back. 
> 
> Cheers! And nice work on your software.  Perhaps a new tool could be incorporated called the law of two eyes: if you don't like what you see, look the other way - rather than react in a derogatory way - Stay Away from the Tocqueville Trap today... 
> 
> Seriously,
> All the Best! 
> 
> MC
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 2:58 PM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
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> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
>    2. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (paul levy)
>    3. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Marc C. Trudeau)
>    4. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (koos at auryn.nl <mailto:koos at auryn.nl>)
>    5. Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Amanda Bucklow and Michael
>       Pannwitz (Mark Carmel)
>    6. Mark, can you commit to not calling anyone a disparaging name
>       again? (Lucas Cioffi)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 15:42:40 -0700
> From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com>>
> To: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com <mailto:rosa at diapraxis.com>>
> Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>         <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>, Koos de Heer <koos at auryn.nl <mailto:koos at auryn.nl>>
> Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID:
>         <CAFDvDFgynt2bD725CLcN1B=6NXnZdQA=Fj5bGk=jCJU4+j0NgA at mail.gmail.com <mailto:jCJU4%2Bj0NgA at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
> interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
> 
> I took special notice of the line:
> ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and nonspecific
> symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill...
> 
> It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of a
> sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to
> start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But oh
> no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right there
> in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of
> paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to local
> docs, who say:  ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide from
> your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray chemical
> cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything you
> touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.
> Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you should
> do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do nothing
> and wait until they cant breathe  literally call the undertaker as they
> pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing now during
> this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works... The moment
> you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot salt
> water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
> 
> I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points reference,
> Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it
> proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to do so,
> but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
> understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as
> open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's opinion.
> Here is that great point:
> 
> ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
> Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
> opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a great
> ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion forms,
> it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
> dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday
> life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
> the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville, like
> James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
> which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
> divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
> it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
> (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start with).
> The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts and
> actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
> 
> ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens in
> a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
> definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
> Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
> opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
> though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people
> who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves ...tormented
> by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
> wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
> those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest
> they should be shunned in their turn...
> 
> In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no
> surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as Tocqueville
> pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion, and we begin to
> experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in failing the
> purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do this
> even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with realistic
> fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those with
> whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who
> need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
> A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking about
> what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST.  Here in
> context of public health.
> 
> June 2021 Gallup
> <https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx <https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx>>
> poll
> found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those choosing
> not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of social distancing
> in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources and supplies
> (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).? True to
> the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust, even hatred,
> of those who?because they believe or act differently?are now perceived as
> threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto Star*, my local
> newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy left for
> the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
> 
> In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the person
> quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost: empathy,
> or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en masse,
> the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must be a
> group effort.
> 
> As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
> liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different
> places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but
> switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient, is
> reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
> least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get
> more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
> government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their own,
> a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually generates
> resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments of
> the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees the
> need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach
> itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should not
> simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own
> leadership?that they should double-down on their responsibility to generate
> trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is not to
> crush, but to better engage.
> 
> In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and neuroscience
> writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to understand
> those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about COVID-deniers
> or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it
> about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from the
> corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
> hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but *also* anxious
> about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet vaccinated
> for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are often more
> anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect. They
> are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with job
> loss and other restrictions.
> 
> One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine hesitant in
> order to learn something from them and about them, and about society as a
> whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues than
> the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and institutions
> involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug regulatory
> process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is not
> simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in the wider
> systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at the speed of
> trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our public
> health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more
> effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it must be
> rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the majority.
> 
> Thanks again Rosa!  Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE!  IF the
> world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
> humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would be
> Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas in
> the World.
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com <mailto:rosa at diapraxis.com>> wrote:
> 
> > Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
> > I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered conversation.
> >
> > The best example I have seen so far,
> > of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
> > viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
> > is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
> >
> >
> > https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one <https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one>
> >
> > I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
> > apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on neuroplasticity.
> > Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
> >
> > And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
> >
> > all best wishes,
> >
> > Rosaa
> >
> >
> >
> > * <http://diapraxis.com <http://diapraxis.com/>>*
> > *Rosa Zubizarreta *
> > *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
> > <http://diapraxis.com <http://diapraxis.com/>>*
> > *coaching in participatory leadership *
> > *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities*
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Mark,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but
> >> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
> >> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text you
> >> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
> >> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you
> >> post it in the first place?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool of
> >> himself? If it is, PLEASE  go play somewhere else.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
> >> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Koos
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *Van:* OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>> *Namens *Mark
> >> Carmel via OSList
> >> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
> >> *Aan:* John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com>>
> >> *CC:* Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com>>; World wide Open Space
> >> Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> >> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I agree with you John...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> >> political agenda belongs on this list.
> >>
> >> Sent from John's iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> >> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >> ?
> >>
> >> These are not my thoughts or my words.  I Do not know the author.  But
> >> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought...
> >> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> >>
> >> Quote from author unknown:   ...Among all the vaccines I have known in my
> >> life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> >> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> >> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> >> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> >> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> >> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> >> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> >> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> >> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> >> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> >> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a
> >> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
> >> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
> >> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> >> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION. If
> >> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> >> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> >> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> >> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> >> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived...   I
> >> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> >> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible.   It is not a legitimate vaccine, it
> >> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> >> something it IS NOT.  So, for me, I will only refer to it as an INJECTION,
> >> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
> >> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> >> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE
> >> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE
> >> for untold years.  This so-called virus was instituted by design by those
> >> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL...  -  B.S.
> >>
> >> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
> >> those who speak it...--George Orwell
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> MC the MC
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OSList mailing list
> >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 23:33:02 +0000
> From: paul levy <paul at cats3000.net <mailto:paul at cats3000.net>>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>         <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> Cc: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com <mailto:rosa at diapraxis.com>>, Mark Carmel
>         <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID:
>         <CAAnJsbA_UMg5NCdYzKiySO1r-xN8JXR794Xwj-wRej5AF=C3mA at mail.gmail.com <mailto:C3mA at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> I still say the vaccinating at Top Shop was a rather jolly affair.
> 
> Paul
> 
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022, 22:42 Mark Carmel via OSList, <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> 
> > Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
> > interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
> >
> > I took special notice of the line:
> > ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and nonspecific
> > symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill...
> >
> > It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of a
> > sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to
> > start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But oh
> > no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right there
> > in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of
> > paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to local
> > docs, who say:  ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide from
> > your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray chemical
> > cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything you
> > touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.
> > Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you should
> > do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do nothing
> > and wait until they cant breathe  literally call the undertaker as they
> > pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing now during
> > this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works... The moment
> > you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot salt
> > water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
> >
> > I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points reference,
> > Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it
> > proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to do so,
> > but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
> > understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as
> > open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's opinion.
> > Here is that great point:
> >
> > ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
> > Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
> > opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a great
> > ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion forms,
> > it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
> > dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday
> > life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
> > the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville, like
> > James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
> > which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
> > divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
> > it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
> > (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start with).
> > The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts and
> > actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
> >
> > ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens in
> > a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
> > definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
> > Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
> > opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
> > though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people
> > who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves ...tormented
> > by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
> > wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
> > those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest
> > they should be shunned in their turn...
> >
> > In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no
> > surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as Tocqueville
> > pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion, and we begin
> > to experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in failing the
> > purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do this
> > even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with realistic
> > fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those with
> > whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who
> > need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
> > A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking about
> > what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST.  Here in
> > context of public health.
> >
> > June 2021 Gallup
> > <https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx <https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx>> poll
> > found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those choosing
> > not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of social distancing
> > in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources and supplies
> > (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).? True to
> > the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust, even hatred,
> > of those who?because they believe or act differently?are now perceived as
> > threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto Star*, my
> > local newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy left
> > for the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
> >
> > In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the person
> > quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost: empathy,
> > or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en masse,
> > the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must be a
> > group effort.
> >
> > As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
> > liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different
> > places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but
> > switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient, is
> > reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
> > least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get
> > more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
> > government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their own,
> > a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually generates
> > resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments of
> > the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees the
> > need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach
> > itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should not
> > simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own
> > leadership?that they should double-down on their responsibility to generate
> > trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is not to
> > crush, but to better engage.
> >
> > In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and neuroscience
> > writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to understand
> > those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about COVID-deniers
> > or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it
> > about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from the
> > corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
> > hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but *also* anxious
> > about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet vaccinated
> > for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are often more
> > anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect. They
> > are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with job
> > loss and other restrictions.
> >
> > One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine hesitant in
> > order to learn something from them and about them, and about society as a
> > whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues than
> > the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and institutions
> > involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug regulatory
> > process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is not
> > simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in the wider
> > systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at the speed of
> > trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our public
> > health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more
> > effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it must be
> > rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the majority.
> >
> > Thanks again Rosa!  Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE!  IF the
> > world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
> > humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would be
> > Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas in
> > the World.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com <mailto:rosa at diapraxis.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
> >> I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered conversation.
> >>
> >> The best example I have seen so far,
> >> of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
> >> viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
> >> is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
> >>
> >>
> >> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one <https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one>
> >>
> >> I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
> >> apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on neuroplasticity.
> >> Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
> >>
> >> And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
> >>
> >> all best wishes,
> >>
> >> Rosaa
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> * <http://diapraxis.com <http://diapraxis.com/>>*
> >> *Rosa Zubizarreta *
> >> *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
> >> <http://diapraxis.com <http://diapraxis.com/>>*
> >> *coaching in participatory leadership *
> >> *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities*
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
> >> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear Mark,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but
> >>> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
> >>> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text you
> >>> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
> >>> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you
> >>> post it in the first place?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool
> >>> of himself? If it is, PLEASE  go play somewhere else.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
> >>> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Koos
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *Van:* OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>> *Namens *Mark
> >>> Carmel via OSList
> >>> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
> >>> *Aan:* John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com>>
> >>> *CC:* Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com>>; World wide Open Space
> >>> Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> >>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I agree with you John...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> >>> political agenda belongs on this list.
> >>>
> >>> Sent from John's iPhone
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> >>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>> These are not my thoughts or my words.  I Do not know the author.  But
> >>> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought...
> >>> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> >>>
> >>> Quote from author unknown:   ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
> >>> my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> >>> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> >>> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> >>> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> >>> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> >>> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> >>> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> >>> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> >>> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> >>> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> >>> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a
> >>> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
> >>> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
> >>> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> >>> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION. If
> >>> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> >>> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> >>> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> >>> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> >>> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived...   I
> >>> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> >>> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible.   It is not a legitimate vaccine, it
> >>> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> >>> something it IS NOT.  So, for me, I will only refer to it as an INJECTION,
> >>> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
> >>> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> >>> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE
> >>> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE
> >>> for untold years.  This so-called virus was instituted by design by those
> >>> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL...  -  B.S.
> >>>
> >>> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
> >>> those who speak it...--George Orwell
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> MC the MC
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> OSList mailing list
> >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> OSList mailing list
> >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:37:25 +0000
> From: "Marc C. Trudeau" <marctrudeau at alum.wpi.edu <mailto:marctrudeau at alum.wpi.edu>>
> To: "OSList (email to post)" <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID: <E1F7AA9E-56F9-494E-B7FA-D70AF7255CC5 at alum.wpi.edu <mailto:E1F7AA9E-56F9-494E-B7FA-D70AF7255CC5 at alum.wpi.edu>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> I observe that this topic is incredibly triggering for all of us, everyone, me included. (It?s not news to this group that the structures and institutions that served us in the industrial age are not coping well with the complexities of today.) I?m drawn to ask myself, what?s the common/universal thread? Is it that this pandemic (and possible climate collapse, on its heels) have every one of us feeling completely powerless for the first time in recent memory? The last huge pandemic was ~1920. Elders who remember the global conflagration that was WWII are nearly all gone.
> 
> Who are the most experienced/expert in living in powerlessness? What can we learn from them?
> 
> Peace and love,
> 
> Marc
> 
> 
> 
> Marc Trudeau
> mobile 774-641-8302
> 
> LikeBreathin.com<http://LikeBreathin.com <http://likebreathin.com/>>
> 
> [cid:2EB09BBC-1735-4700-ACEC-73F6D1DDD1F7]
> 
> Effective teamwork and team leadership feel nearly effortless, Like Breathin??. Partner with us to experience how.
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 21:18:29 +0100
> From: <koos at auryn.nl <mailto:koos at auryn.nl>>
> To: "'Mark Carmel'" <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com>>, "'Rosa Zubizarreta'"
>         <rosa at diapraxis.com <mailto:rosa at diapraxis.com>>
> Cc: "'World wide Open Space Technology email list'"
>         <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID: <02e801d80fcd$389634f0$a9c29ed0$@auryn.nl <http://auryn.nl/>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> There is one point you seem to miss, Mark. The fact that the author understands and explains a phenomenon, does not mean he supports it. The fact that the authorities are clumsy in their ways of coercion, does not mean that the behavior they are trying to promote is wrong. The author is not against vaccination, on the contrary. The whole point of the piece is about short-sighted change management and has very little to do with Covid, which is just an example in a much bigger picture he is painting. The way you are twisting this into an anti-vax argument is creative, but wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Van: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com>> 
> Verzonden: vrijdag 21 januari 2022 23:43
> Aan: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com <mailto:rosa at diapraxis.com>>
> CC: World wide Open Space Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>; Koos de Heer <koos at auryn.nl <mailto:koos at auryn.nl>>
> Onderwerp: Who is BS-ing Whom?
> 
> 
> 
> Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring, interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
> 
> 
> 
> I took special notice of the line:
> 
> ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and nonspecific symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill... 
> 
> 
> 
> It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of a sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But oh no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right there in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to local docs, who say:  ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide from your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray chemical cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything you touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.  Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you should do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do nothing and wait until they cant breathe  literally call the undertaker as they pull out a pistol and shoot themselves.
>   Suicide skyrocketing now during this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works... The moment you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot salt water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
> 
> 
> 
> I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points reference, Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to do so, but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's opinion.  Here is that great point:
> 
> 
> 
> ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a great ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion forms, it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville, like James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,? which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment; it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start with). The majority overtaking the minority could mean s
>  tamping out thoughts and actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
> 
> ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens in a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes. Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves ...tormented by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest they should be shunned in their turn...
> 
> In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as Tocqueville pointed out, this also occurs when there is no contagion, and we begin to experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in failing the purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do this even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with realistic fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those with whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
> 
> A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking about what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST.  Here in context of public health.
> 
> 
> 
> June 2021  <https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx <https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx>> Gallup poll found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those choosing not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of social distancing in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources and supplies (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).? True to the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust, even hatred, of those who?because they believe or act differently?are now perceived as threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the Toronto Star, my local newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy left for the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
> 
> In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the person quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost: empathy, or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en masse, the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must be a group effort.
> 
> As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient, is reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their own, a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually generates resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments of the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees the need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should not simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in t
>  heir own leadership?that they should double-down on their responsibility to generate trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is not to crush, but to better engage.
> 
> In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and neuroscience writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to understand those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about COVID-deniers or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from the corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but also anxious about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet vaccinated for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are often more anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect. They are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with job loss and other restrictions.
> 
> One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine hesitant in order to learn something from them and about them, and about society as a whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues than the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and institutions involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug regulatory process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is not simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in the wider systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at the speed of trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our public health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it must be rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the majority.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again Rosa!  Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE!  IF the world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would be Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas in the World.
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com <mailto:rosa at diapraxis.com> <mailto:rosa at diapraxis.com <mailto:rosa at diapraxis.com>> > wrote:
> 
> Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives. 
> 
> I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered conversation. 
> 
> 
> 
> The best example I have seen so far, 
> 
> of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
> 
> is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
> 
> 
> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one <https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one>
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did... 
> 
> apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on neuroplasticity. 
> 
> Very erudite person, and lovely writer. 
> 
> 
> 
> And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
> 
> 
> 
> all best wishes,
> 
> 
> 
> Rosaa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rosa Zubizarreta 
> 
>  <http://diapraxis.com <http://diapraxis.com/>> DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
> coaching in participatory leadership 
> advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> > wrote:
> 
> Dear Mark,
> 
> 
> 
> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text you posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you post it in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool of himself? If it is, PLEASE  go play somewhere else.
> 
> 
> 
> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
> 
> 
> 
> Koos
> 
> 
> 
> Van: OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>> > Namens Mark Carmel via OSList
> Verzonden: donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
> Aan: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com> <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com>> >
> CC: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com> <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com>> >; World wide Open Space Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> >
> Onderwerp: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you John...
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com> <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com>> > wrote:
> 
> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and political agenda belongs on this list. 
> 
> Sent from John's iPhone
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> > wrote:
> 
> ?
> 
> These are not my thoughts or my words.  I Do not know the author.  But here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought... that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> 
> Quote from author unknown:   ...Among all the vaccines I have known in my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox, hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family, colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates, di
>  vides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens? It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION. If we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived...   I have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a ...vaccine.. again if at all possible.   It is not a legitimate vaccine, it is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be something it IS NOT.  So, for me, I will only refer to it as an INJECTION, which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONO
>  MY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE for untold years.  This so-called virus was instituted by design by those whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL...  -  B.S.
> 
> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it...--George Orwell
> 
> 
> 
> MC the MC
> 
> _______________________________________________
> OSList mailing list
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> _______________________________________________
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> 
> -------------- next part --------------
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 13:24:36 -0700
> From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com>>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>         <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Amanda Bucklow and
>         Michael Pannwitz
> Message-ID:
>         <CAFDvDFiM_VE+UYNHvNa5qPgtG0rzbmUvtdMLmm5gFeD_pxdbiQ at mail.gmail.com <mailto:CAFDvDFiM_VE%2BUYNHvNa5qPgtG0rzbmUvtdMLmm5gFeD_pxdbiQ at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> To Amanda Bucklow,
> Thanks for your feedback. You fell right into what I will call the
> TocquevilleTRAP that is outlined in the thoughtful link provided by Rosa
> Zubizarreta on Needle Points (Thanks again Rosa!).  Please allow me to take
> on your hit piece, Amanda, point by point.
> 
> But first I want to thank and commend Michael Pannwitz for your response!
> You hit on points which i believe are profoundly wise.  And thank you for
> the story of Harrison getting his great book -The Practice of Peace -
> published.
> 
> Fascinating Michael!  You said Harrison's publisher rejected the book.
> Amanda, what if Harrison did what he was told (as you told me), to hush up
> - ...change the subject... and as Koos told me, to get lost and ... PLEASE
> go play somewhere else...? Well I guess we may not have the genius of Open
> Space Technology if Harrison would have taken no for an answer and allowed
> others to silence him and cancel his book of discoveries. Thanks Harrison
> not giving up or giving in to your critics!
> ________________
> 
> Michael Pannwitz, you said:
> They (Harrison's publisher) felt it didn't fit into their program... this
> was
> not the end of the book....What happened?
> 
> ... In no time flat the book was printed and distributed and later also
> translated by folks in 8 countries around the globe in North America,
> Europe, near and far Asia (from the European point of view), Australia,
> the Caribic ...
> 
> Harrison called this phenomenon the "Global Chaordic Publication".
> 
> It is the string "Who is BS-ing Whom?" that instantly fired up my
> synapses which resurfaced this phehomenon... and my thoughts later on.
> 
> Mulling over the current pandemic lets me wonder what incited the worst
> pandemic on the globe.
> Not surprising myself in any serious fashion I felt it is us ouselves...
> like the creature in Pogo looking in a mirror seeing his enemy, see here
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_have_met_the_enemy <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_have_met_the_enemy>
> 
> And what is it, at the core, that causes this disaster? Which virus is
> that? What is the name of the disease this virus creates?
> How about "control", the only real enemy of "selforganisation".
> And who is best at controlling.
> Yep, us.
> 
> What was the impedement to publishing "The Practice of Peace"? What
> hindered an established, mainstream and well known publisher to turn
> down a book from an author that had a vision?
> 
> ... If we start controlling OSLIST it will lose its meaning...
> 
> Thanks again Michael for this profound wisdom, making two top tier points:
> That the name of the REAL disease the Virus has caused is: CONTROL.... and,
> that:
> ...control of the OS list will lose its meaning...
> __________________
> 
>  Amanda, you said the following which i will respond to point by point:
> 
> ...One of the most important things about respectful disagreement is
> congruence and consistency. I notice the following in your response to Koos:
> 
> I said I did not agree with the posted comments.
> I guess you feel the vaccine works as promised despite all the deaths we
> continue to see... good for you.
> I have had covid twice, initial round and omicron and killed it with table
> salt in 4 days.
> 
> I am happy to engage in respectful disagreement with those who are willing
> to be called out on their mental models and I am calling you out, Mark, on
> your manipulative arguments which will definitely feel like bullying to
> those who find inconsistency and flip-flopping deeply disrespectful.
> 
> Please change the subject because this is going nowhere in terms of
> learning and appreciation. It certainly does not acknowledge the grief and
> loss of those who couldn?t kill the virus with ?table salt? in 4 days.
> ______________
> OK, Amanda you are calling me out on my ...mental model... and want me to
> change the subject because it has no learning and appreciation, and that I
> fail to acknowledge the grief and loss of those who couldnt kill the virus
> in 4 days using table salt? You call me a bully, and accuse me of being
> disrespectful, a flip flopper and inconsistent? Wow, that is quite a pro
> hit piece wrapped in  intellectual language of a mediator. Impressive take
> down attempt. Well, now i am calling you out.    First, NO MA'AM, I will
> not change the subject nor go away and play somewhere else as Koos directed
> me. You fell right into the Tocqueville trap of seeking to silence, censor
> and send away those who disagree with your opinions, or as you put it your
> ...mental model...  You want to kick me out of the club, right? I offered
> an alternative to doing nothing to kill the virus if one becomes sick out
> of immense feelings i have to acknowledge the grief and loss by those who
> could not kill the virus and who died or got gravely I'll. Like a lot of my
> friends.  To me you are the one being disingenuous and deeply disrespectful
> by saying that Amanda.  And I hope you too look in the mirror to see
> yourself as an open space facilitator seeking to close down a conversation
> by insult.  If you did see value in the conversation, perhaps learning and
> saving lives would result in your circle of influence.  And as I alluded as
> one of my motives, to help people who facilit8 OST to be more keenly aware
> of keeping out of the Tocqueville Trap...  Here is the quote again from the
> Needle Points piece Rosa shared. I Respectfully request you read it along
> with the rest of the link Rosa provided. Again I thank you for your
> feedback regardless of how wrong and offensive I find it to be. I did say I
> agree with John in part to keep haters (like you) off my back and to
> enlighten us facilitators (by the way, I love your handle: Facilit8)..  I
> wish you wellness and hope and trust you see now Amanda how you fell into
> the Tocqueville Trap:
> 
> One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
> Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
> opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a great
> ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion forms,
> it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
> dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday
> life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
> the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville, like
> James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
> which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
> divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
> it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
> (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start with).
> The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts and
> actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
> 
> ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens in
> a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
> definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
> Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
> opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
> though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people
> who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves ...tormented
> by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
> wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
> those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest
> they should be shunned in their turn...
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville>
> 
> I apologize and am sorry for offending anyone with the opposing viewpoint I
> posted and my comments that followed.  Please don't kick me out of the
> club...
> 
> Respectfully Submitted with Congruence, Consistency, and Honesty wishing
> Peace of Mind to ALL you Peacemakers.
> MC
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 2:35 PM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> wrote:
> 
> > Send OSList mailing list submissions to
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> >
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> >
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> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> >    2. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (John Watkins)
> >    3. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> >    4. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> >    5. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Michael M Pannwitz)
> >    6. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (john watkins)
> >    7. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (paul levy)
> >    8. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (koos at auryn.nl <mailto:koos at auryn.nl>)
> >    9. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> >   10. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Amanda Bucklow)
> >   11. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Rosa Zubizarreta)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:35:06 -0700
> > From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com>>
> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> >         <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> > Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> > Message-ID:
> >         <CAFDvDFhpP-VkN=
> > XZuY1QK7EJcn_cuz+qAb1QqQkT4szp9DPFpg at mail.gmail.com <mailto:XZuY1QK7EJcn_cuz%2BqAb1QqQkT4szp9DPFpg at mail.gmail.com>>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > These are not my thoughts or my words.  I Do not know the author.  But here
> > is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought... that
> > I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> >
> > Quote from author unknown:   ...Among all the vaccines I have known in my
> > life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> > never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> > colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> > livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a
> > 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
> > above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
> > divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> > It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION. If
> > we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> > need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> > need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> > hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> > ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived...   I
> > have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> > ...vaccine.. again if at all possible.   It is not a legitimate vaccine, it
> > is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> > something it IS NOT.  So, for me, I will only refer to it as an INJECTION,
> > which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
> > of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> > been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE
> > WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE
> > for untold years.  This so-called virus was instituted by design by those
> > whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL...  -  B.S.
> >
> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those
> > who speak it...--George Orwell
> >
> > MC the MC
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220120/a115fea0/attachment-0001.html <http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220120/a115fea0/attachment-0001.html>
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:38:52 -0800
> > From: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com>>
> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> >         <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> > Cc: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com>>
> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> > Message-ID: <45F81129-84C3-4B38-93AB-7B672AEC4CB9 at mac.com <mailto:45F81129-84C3-4B38-93AB-7B672AEC4CB9 at mac.com>>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> > political agenda belongs on this list.
> >
> > Sent from John's iPhone
> >
> > > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?
> > > These are not my thoughts or my words.  I Do not know the author.  But
> > here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought...
> > that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> > >
> > > Quote from author unknown:   ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
> > my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> > never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> > colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> > livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a
> > 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
> > above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
> >  divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> > It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION. If
> > we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> > need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> > need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> > hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> > ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived...   I
> > have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> > ...vaccine.. again if at all possible.   It is not a legitimate vaccine, it
> > is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> > something it IS NOT.  So, for me, I will only refer to it as an INJECTION,
> > which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
> > of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> > been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECO
> >  NOMY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
> > SCRIPTURE for untold years.  This so-called virus was instituted by design
> > by those whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL...  -  B.S.
> > >
> > > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
> > those who speak it...--George Orwell
> > >
> > > MC the MC
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OSList mailing list
> > > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> > > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220120/e9aae0ba/attachment-0001.html <http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220120/e9aae0ba/attachment-0001.html>
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:49:35 -0700
> > From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com>>
> > To: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com>>
> > Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> >         <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> > Message-ID:
> >         <
> > CAFDvDFg97hGa0KPZQnYf+yRZoztHpiLKzW_H4HTmj-XLVSfMcQ at mail.gmail.com <mailto:CAFDvDFg97hGa0KPZQnYf%2ByRZoztHpiLKzW_H4HTmj-XLVSfMcQ at mail.gmail.com>>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those
> > who speak it...--George Orwell
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> > > political agenda belongs on this list.
> > >
> > > Sent from John's iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> > > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?
> > > These are not my thoughts or my words.  I Do not know the author.  But
> > > here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
> > thought...
> > > that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> > >
> > > Quote from author unknown:   ...Among all the vaccines I have known in my
> > > life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> > > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> > > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> > > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> > > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> > > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> > > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> > > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> > > never seen a vaccine t
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