[OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Lucas Cioffi
Mark Carmel
markacarmel at gmail.com
Sat Jan 22 19:27:49 PST 2022
Lucas, do you see yourself in this quote? Are you being a hater? Too?
... The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those
who speak it...--George Orwell ...
To answer your question, can I commit to no name calling? You accused me
of: derogatory name calling. I guess it depends on what the definition of
derogatory is. Right? I ask you, If something is TRUE is it derogatory? I
simply made a post - super respectfully - sharing an opposing viewpoint
from someone else and ended up being hated on, (using the term of modern
slang... https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hater ) and was
told to hush up and get lost, called a bully, called a lot of names... like
now, being called derogatory, by you Lucas. So if someone is hating on me
- for sharing a thought, from others - (on this list - that is what? the
most open forum in the world?) and I call them a hater, who is being
derogatory, me or them? So to answer your question in this context: Hell
NO!
Lucas, are you the Leader of this list? Now that I said no what are you
going to do, kick me out of the club? This is why I said honestly I will
think twice about posting opposing views here again, to keep haters (like
you) off my back.
Cheers! And nice work on your software. Perhaps a new tool could be
incorporated called the law of two eyes: if you don't like what you see,
look the other way - rather than react in a derogatory way - Stay Away from
the Tocqueville Trap today...
Seriously,
All the Best!
MC
On Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 2:58 PM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> 2. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (paul levy)
> 3. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Marc C. Trudeau)
> 4. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (koos at auryn.nl)
> 5. Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Amanda Bucklow and Michael
> Pannwitz (Mark Carmel)
> 6. Mark, can you commit to not calling anyone a disparaging name
> again? (Lucas Cioffi)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 15:42:40 -0700
> From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> To: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
> Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>, Koos de Heer <koos at auryn.nl>
> Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID:
> <CAFDvDFgynt2bD725CLcN1B=6NXnZdQA=Fj5bGk=
> jCJU4+j0NgA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
> interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
>
> I took special notice of the line:
> ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and nonspecific
> symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill...
>
> It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of a
> sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to
> start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But oh
> no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right there
> in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of
> paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to local
> docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide from
> your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray chemical
> cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything you
> touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.
> Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you should
> do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do nothing
> and wait until they cant breathe literally call the undertaker as they
> pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing now during
> this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works... The moment
> you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot salt
> water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
>
> I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points reference,
> Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it
> proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to do so,
> but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
> understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as
> open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's opinion.
> Here is that great point:
>
> ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
> Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
> opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a great
> ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion forms,
> it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
> dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday
> life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
> the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville, like
> James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
> which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
> divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
> it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
> (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start with).
> The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts and
> actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
>
> ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens in
> a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
> definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
> Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
> opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
> though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people
> who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves ...tormented
> by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
> wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
> those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest
> they should be shunned in their turn...
>
> In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no
> surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as Tocqueville
> pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion, and we begin to
> experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in failing the
> purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do this
> even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with realistic
> fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those with
> whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who
> need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
> A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking about
> what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST. Here in
> context of public health.
>
> June 2021 Gallup
> <
> https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx
> >
> poll
> found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those choosing
> not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of social distancing
> in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources and supplies
> (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).? True to
> the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust, even hatred,
> of those who?because they believe or act differently?are now perceived as
> threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto Star*, my local
> newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy left for
> the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
>
> In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the person
> quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost: empathy,
> or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en masse,
> the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must be a
> group effort.
>
> As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
> liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different
> places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but
> switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient, is
> reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
> least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get
> more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
> government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their own,
> a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually generates
> resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments of
> the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees the
> need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach
> itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should not
> simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own
> leadership?that they should double-down on their responsibility to generate
> trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is not to
> crush, but to better engage.
>
> In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and neuroscience
> writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to understand
> those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about COVID-deniers
> or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it
> about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from the
> corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
> hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but *also* anxious
> about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet vaccinated
> for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are often more
> anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect. They
> are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with job
> loss and other restrictions.
>
> One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine hesitant in
> order to learn something from them and about them, and about society as a
> whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues than
> the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and institutions
> involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug regulatory
> process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is not
> simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in the wider
> systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at the speed of
> trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our public
> health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more
> effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it must be
> rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the majority.
>
> Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE! IF the
> world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
> humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would be
> Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas in
> the World.
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com> wrote:
>
> > Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
> > I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered conversation.
> >
> > The best example I have seen so far,
> > of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
> > viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
> > is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
> >
> >
> >
> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
> >
> > I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
> > apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on neuroplasticity.
> > Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
> >
> > And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
> >
> > all best wishes,
> >
> > Rosaa
> >
> >
> >
> > * <http://diapraxis.com>*
> > *Rosa Zubizarreta *
> > *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
> > <http://diapraxis.com>*
> > *coaching in participatory leadership *
> > *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities*
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Mark,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but
> >> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
> >> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text
> you
> >> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
> >> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you
> >> post it in the first place?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool
> of
> >> himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
> >> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Koos
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *Van:* OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> *Namens *Mark
> >> Carmel via OSList
> >> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
> >> *Aan:* John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
> >> *CC:* Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>; World wide Open Space
> >> Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I agree with you John...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> >> political agenda belongs on this list.
> >>
> >> Sent from John's iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> >> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> ?
> >>
> >> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
> >> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
> thought...
> >> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> >>
> >> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
> my
> >> life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> >> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> >> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> >> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> >> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination.
> I
> >> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> >> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> >> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> >> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> >> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> >> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
> allow a
> >> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I
> listed
> >> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
> >> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> >> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION.
> If
> >> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> >> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> >> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> >> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> >> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
> >> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> >> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate
> vaccine, it
> >> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> >> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
> INJECTION,
> >> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
> CONTROL
> >> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> >> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE
> >> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE
> >> for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by
> those
> >> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
> >>
> >> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
> >> those who speak it...--George Orwell
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> MC the MC
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OSList mailing list
> >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> >> Past archives can be viewed here:
> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OSList mailing list
> >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> >> Past archives can be viewed here:
> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 23:33:02 +0000
> From: paul levy <paul at cats3000.net>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Cc: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>, Mark Carmel
> <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID:
> <CAAnJsbA_UMg5NCdYzKiySO1r-xN8JXR794Xwj-wRej5AF=
> C3mA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I still say the vaccinating at Top Shop was a rather jolly affair.
>
> Paul
>
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022, 22:42 Mark Carmel via OSList, <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> > Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
> > interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
> >
> > I took special notice of the line:
> > ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and nonspecific
> > symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill...
> >
> > It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of a
> > sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to
> > start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But oh
> > no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right there
> > in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of
> > paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to local
> > docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide from
> > your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray
> chemical
> > cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything
> you
> > touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.
> > Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you
> should
> > do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do
> nothing
> > and wait until they cant breathe literally call the undertaker as they
> > pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing now during
> > this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works... The moment
> > you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot salt
> > water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
> >
> > I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points reference,
> > Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it
> > proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to do
> so,
> > but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
> > understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as
> > open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's
> opinion.
> > Here is that great point:
> >
> > ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
> > Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
> > opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a
> great
> > ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion
> forms,
> > it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
> > dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in
> everyday
> > life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
> > the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville,
> like
> > James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
> > which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
> > divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
> > it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
> > (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start
> with).
> > The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts and
> > actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
> >
> > ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens
> in
> > a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
> > definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
> > Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
> > opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
> > though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level,
> people
> > who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves
> ...tormented
> > by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
> > wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
> > those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest
> > they should be shunned in their turn...
> >
> > In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no
> > surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as
> Tocqueville
> > pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion, and we begin
> > to experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in failing
> the
> > purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do
> this
> > even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with
> realistic
> > fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those with
> > whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who
> > need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
> > A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking
> about
> > what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST. Here in
> > context of public health.
> >
> > June 2021 Gallup
> > <
> https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx>
> poll
> > found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those choosing
> > not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of social
> distancing
> > in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources and
> supplies
> > (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).? True to
> > the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust, even hatred,
> > of those who?because they believe or act differently?are now perceived as
> > threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto Star*, my
> > local newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy
> left
> > for the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
> >
> > In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the
> person
> > quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost:
> empathy,
> > or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en masse,
> > the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must
> be a
> > group effort.
> >
> > As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
> > liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different
> > places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but
> > switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient, is
> > reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
> > least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get
> > more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
> > government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their
> own,
> > a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually
> generates
> > resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments of
> > the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees the
> > need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach
> > itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should not
> > simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own
> > leadership?that they should double-down on their responsibility to
> generate
> > trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is not to
> > crush, but to better engage.
> >
> > In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and
> neuroscience
> > writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to
> understand
> > those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about
> COVID-deniers
> > or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it
> > about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from
> the
> > corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
> > hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but *also*
> anxious
> > about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet vaccinated
> > for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are often more
> > anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect. They
> > are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with job
> > loss and other restrictions.
> >
> > One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine hesitant
> in
> > order to learn something from them and about them, and about society as a
> > whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues
> than
> > the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and
> institutions
> > involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug
> regulatory
> > process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is not
> > simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in the wider
> > systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at the speed
> of
> > trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our public
> > health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more
> > effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it must
> be
> > rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the
> majority.
> >
> > Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE! IF the
> > world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
> > humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would be
> > Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas in
> > the World.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
> >> I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered
> conversation.
> >>
> >> The best example I have seen so far,
> >> of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
> >> viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
> >> is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
> >>
> >>
> >>
> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
> >>
> >> I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
> >> apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on neuroplasticity.
> >> Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
> >>
> >> And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
> >>
> >> all best wishes,
> >>
> >> Rosaa
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> * <http://diapraxis.com>*
> >> *Rosa Zubizarreta *
> >> *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
> >> <http://diapraxis.com>*
> >> *coaching in participatory leadership *
> >> *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities*
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
> >> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear Mark,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but
> >>> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
> >>> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text
> you
> >>> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
> >>> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you
> >>> post it in the first place?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool
> >>> of himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
> >>> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Koos
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *Van:* OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> *Namens *Mark
> >>> Carmel via OSList
> >>> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
> >>> *Aan:* John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
> >>> *CC:* Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>; World wide Open Space
> >>> Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I agree with you John...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> >>> political agenda belongs on this list.
> >>>
> >>> Sent from John's iPhone
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> >>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
> >>> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
> thought...
> >>> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> >>>
> >>> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
> >>> my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> >>> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> >>> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask
> and
> >>> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> >>> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
> vaccination. I
> >>> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> >>> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> >>> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> >>> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> >>> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> >>> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
> allow a
> >>> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I
> listed
> >>> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
> >>> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> >>> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except
> IMMUNIZATION. If
> >>> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we
> still
> >>> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> >>> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> >>> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come
> to
> >>> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
> >>> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> >>> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate
> vaccine, it
> >>> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> >>> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
> INJECTION,
> >>> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
> CONTROL
> >>> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> >>> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE
> >>> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
> SCRIPTURE
> >>> for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by
> those
> >>> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
> >>>
> >>> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
> >>> those who speak it...--George Orwell
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> MC the MC
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> OSList mailing list
> >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> OSList mailing list
> >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:37:25 +0000
> From: "Marc C. Trudeau" <marctrudeau at alum.wpi.edu>
> To: "OSList (email to post)" <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID: <E1F7AA9E-56F9-494E-B7FA-D70AF7255CC5 at alum.wpi.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I observe that this topic is incredibly triggering for all of us,
> everyone, me included. (It?s not news to this group that the structures and
> institutions that served us in the industrial age are not coping well with
> the complexities of today.) I?m drawn to ask myself, what?s the
> common/universal thread? Is it that this pandemic (and possible climate
> collapse, on its heels) have every one of us feeling completely powerless
> for the first time in recent memory? The last huge pandemic was ~1920.
> Elders who remember the global conflagration that was WWII are nearly all
> gone.
>
> Who are the most experienced/expert in living in powerlessness? What can
> we learn from them?
>
> Peace and love,
>
> Marc
>
>
>
> Marc Trudeau
> mobile 774-641-8302
>
> LikeBreathin.com<http://LikeBreathin.com>
>
> [cid:2EB09BBC-1735-4700-ACEC-73F6D1DDD1F7]
>
> Effective teamwork and team leadership feel nearly effortless, Like
> Breathin??. Partner with us to experience how.
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 21:18:29 +0100
> From: <koos at auryn.nl>
> To: "'Mark Carmel'" <markacarmel at gmail.com>, "'Rosa Zubizarreta'"
> <rosa at diapraxis.com>
> Cc: "'World wide Open Space Technology email list'"
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID: <02e801d80fcd$389634f0$a9c29ed0$@auryn.nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> There is one point you seem to miss, Mark. The fact that the author
> understands and explains a phenomenon, does not mean he supports it. The
> fact that the authorities are clumsy in their ways of coercion, does not
> mean that the behavior they are trying to promote is wrong. The author is
> not against vaccination, on the contrary. The whole point of the piece is
> about short-sighted change management and has very little to do with Covid,
> which is just an example in a much bigger picture he is painting. The way
> you are twisting this into an anti-vax argument is creative, but wrong.
>
>
>
> Van: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> Verzonden: vrijdag 21 januari 2022 23:43
> Aan: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
> CC: World wide Open Space Technology email list <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>; Koos de Heer <koos at auryn.nl>
> Onderwerp: Who is BS-ing Whom?
>
>
>
> Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
> interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
>
>
>
> I took special notice of the line:
>
> ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and nonspecific
> symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill...
>
>
>
> It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of a
> sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to
> start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But oh
> no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right there
> in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of
> paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to local
> docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide from
> your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray chemical
> cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything you
> touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.
> Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you should
> do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do nothing
> and wait until they cant breathe literally call the undertaker as they
> pull out a pistol and shoot themselves.
> Suicide skyrocketing now during this disease. My solution is simple and
> better and it works... The moment you feel a runny nose or sore throat,
> cough, etc., gargle with hot salt water and rinse your nose with a saline
> rinse...bye bye bugs...!
>
>
>
> I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points reference,
> Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it
> proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to do so,
> but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
> understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as
> open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's opinion.
> Here is that great point:
>
>
>
> ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
> Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
> opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a great
> ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion forms,
> it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
> dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday
> life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
> the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville, like
> James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
> which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
> divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
> it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
> (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start with).
> The majority overtaking the minority could mean s
> tamping out thoughts and actions that would otherwise generate progress
> and forward movement...
>
> ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens in
> a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
> definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
> Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
> opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
> though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people
> who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves ...tormented
> by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
> wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
> those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest
> they should be shunned in their turn...
>
> In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no
> surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as Tocqueville
> pointed out, this also occurs when there is no contagion, and we begin to
> experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in failing the
> purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do this
> even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with realistic
> fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those with
> whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who
> need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
>
> A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking about
> what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST. Here in
> context of public health.
>
>
>
> June 2021 <
> https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx>
> Gallup poll found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about
> those choosing not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of
> social distancing in their area (27%), availability of local hospital
> resources and supplies (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in
> their area (5%).? True to the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing
> into disgust, even hatred, of those who?because they believe or act
> differently?are now perceived as threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story
> in the Toronto Star, my local newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying:
> ...I have no empathy left for the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
>
> In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the person
> quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost: empathy,
> or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en masse,
> the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must be a
> group effort.
>
> As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
> liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different
> places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but
> switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient, is
> reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
> least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get
> more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
> government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their own,
> a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually generates
> resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments of
> the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees the
> need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach
> itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should not
> simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in t
> heir own leadership?that they should double-down on their responsibility
> to generate trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is
> not to crush, but to better engage.
>
> In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and neuroscience
> writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to understand
> those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about COVID-deniers
> or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it
> about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from the
> corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
> hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but also anxious
> about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet vaccinated
> for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are often more
> anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect. They
> are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with job
> loss and other restrictions.
>
> One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine hesitant in
> order to learn something from them and about them, and about society as a
> whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues than
> the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and institutions
> involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug regulatory
> process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is not
> simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in the wider
> systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at the speed of
> trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our public
> health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more
> effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it must be
> rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the majority.
>
>
>
> Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE! IF the
> world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
> humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would be
> Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas in
> the World.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com
> <mailto:rosa at diapraxis.com> > wrote:
>
> Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
>
> I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered conversation.
>
>
>
> The best example I have seen so far,
>
> of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
> viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
>
> is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
>
>
>
> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
>
>
>
> I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
>
> apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on neuroplasticity.
>
> Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
>
>
>
> And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
>
>
>
> all best wishes,
>
>
>
> Rosaa
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Rosa Zubizarreta
>
> <http://diapraxis.com> DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative
> Collaboration
> coaching in participatory leadership
> advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> >
> wrote:
>
> Dear Mark,
>
>
>
> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>
>
>
> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but
> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text you
> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you
> post it in the first place?
>
>
>
> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool of
> himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
>
>
>
> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>
>
>
> Koos
>
>
>
> Van: OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
> oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> > Namens Mark Carmel via OSList
> Verzonden: donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
> Aan: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com> >
> CC: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com> >;
> World wide Open Space Technology email list <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> >
> Onderwerp: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>
>
>
> I agree with you John...
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:
> johnw536 at mac.com> > wrote:
>
> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> political agenda belongs on this list.
>
> Sent from John's iPhone
>
>
>
> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> >
> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought...
> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>
> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in my
> life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a
> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates, di
> vides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION. If
> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate vaccine, it
> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an INJECTION,
> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONO
> MY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
> SCRIPTURE for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design
> by those whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>
> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those
> who speak it...--George Orwell
>
>
>
> MC the MC
>
> _______________________________________________
> OSList mailing list
> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 13:24:36 -0700
> From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Amanda Bucklow and
> Michael Pannwitz
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAFDvDFiM_VE+UYNHvNa5qPgtG0rzbmUvtdMLmm5gFeD_pxdbiQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> To Amanda Bucklow,
> Thanks for your feedback. You fell right into what I will call the
> TocquevilleTRAP that is outlined in the thoughtful link provided by Rosa
> Zubizarreta on Needle Points (Thanks again Rosa!). Please allow me to take
> on your hit piece, Amanda, point by point.
>
> But first I want to thank and commend Michael Pannwitz for your response!
> You hit on points which i believe are profoundly wise. And thank you for
> the story of Harrison getting his great book -The Practice of Peace -
> published.
>
> Fascinating Michael! You said Harrison's publisher rejected the book.
> Amanda, what if Harrison did what he was told (as you told me), to hush up
> - ...change the subject... and as Koos told me, to get lost and ... PLEASE
> go play somewhere else...? Well I guess we may not have the genius of Open
> Space Technology if Harrison would have taken no for an answer and allowed
> others to silence him and cancel his book of discoveries. Thanks Harrison
> not giving up or giving in to your critics!
> ________________
>
> Michael Pannwitz, you said:
> They (Harrison's publisher) felt it didn't fit into their program... this
> was
> not the end of the book....What happened?
>
> ... In no time flat the book was printed and distributed and later also
> translated by folks in 8 countries around the globe in North America,
> Europe, near and far Asia (from the European point of view), Australia,
> the Caribic ...
>
> Harrison called this phenomenon the "Global Chaordic Publication".
>
> It is the string "Who is BS-ing Whom?" that instantly fired up my
> synapses which resurfaced this phehomenon... and my thoughts later on.
>
> Mulling over the current pandemic lets me wonder what incited the worst
> pandemic on the globe.
> Not surprising myself in any serious fashion I felt it is us ouselves...
> like the creature in Pogo looking in a mirror seeing his enemy, see here
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_have_met_the_enemy
>
> And what is it, at the core, that causes this disaster? Which virus is
> that? What is the name of the disease this virus creates?
> How about "control", the only real enemy of "selforganisation".
> And who is best at controlling.
> Yep, us.
>
> What was the impedement to publishing "The Practice of Peace"? What
> hindered an established, mainstream and well known publisher to turn
> down a book from an author that had a vision?
>
> ... If we start controlling OSLIST it will lose its meaning...
>
> Thanks again Michael for this profound wisdom, making two top tier points:
> That the name of the REAL disease the Virus has caused is: CONTROL.... and,
> that:
> ...control of the OS list will lose its meaning...
> __________________
>
> Amanda, you said the following which i will respond to point by point:
>
> ...One of the most important things about respectful disagreement is
> congruence and consistency. I notice the following in your response to
> Koos:
>
> I said I did not agree with the posted comments.
> I guess you feel the vaccine works as promised despite all the deaths we
> continue to see... good for you.
> I have had covid twice, initial round and omicron and killed it with table
> salt in 4 days.
>
> I am happy to engage in respectful disagreement with those who are willing
> to be called out on their mental models and I am calling you out, Mark, on
> your manipulative arguments which will definitely feel like bullying to
> those who find inconsistency and flip-flopping deeply disrespectful.
>
> Please change the subject because this is going nowhere in terms of
> learning and appreciation. It certainly does not acknowledge the grief and
> loss of those who couldn?t kill the virus with ?table salt? in 4 days.
> ______________
> OK, Amanda you are calling me out on my ...mental model... and want me to
> change the subject because it has no learning and appreciation, and that I
> fail to acknowledge the grief and loss of those who couldnt kill the virus
> in 4 days using table salt? You call me a bully, and accuse me of being
> disrespectful, a flip flopper and inconsistent? Wow, that is quite a pro
> hit piece wrapped in intellectual language of a mediator. Impressive take
> down attempt. Well, now i am calling you out. First, NO MA'AM, I will
> not change the subject nor go away and play somewhere else as Koos directed
> me. You fell right into the Tocqueville trap of seeking to silence, censor
> and send away those who disagree with your opinions, or as you put it your
> ...mental model... You want to kick me out of the club, right? I offered
> an alternative to doing nothing to kill the virus if one becomes sick out
> of immense feelings i have to acknowledge the grief and loss by those who
> could not kill the virus and who died or got gravely I'll. Like a lot of my
> friends. To me you are the one being disingenuous and deeply disrespectful
> by saying that Amanda. And I hope you too look in the mirror to see
> yourself as an open space facilitator seeking to close down a conversation
> by insult. If you did see value in the conversation, perhaps learning and
> saving lives would result in your circle of influence. And as I alluded as
> one of my motives, to help people who facilit8 OST to be more keenly aware
> of keeping out of the Tocqueville Trap... Here is the quote again from the
> Needle Points piece Rosa shared. I Respectfully request you read it along
> with the rest of the link Rosa provided. Again I thank you for your
> feedback regardless of how wrong and offensive I find it to be. I did say I
> agree with John in part to keep haters (like you) off my back and to
> enlighten us facilitators (by the way, I love your handle: Facilit8).. I
> wish you wellness and hope and trust you see now Amanda how you fell into
> the Tocqueville Trap:
>
> One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
> Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
> opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a great
> ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion forms,
> it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
> dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday
> life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
> the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville, like
> James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
> which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
> divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
> it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
> (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start with).
> The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts and
> actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
>
> ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens in
> a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
> definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
> Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
> opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
> though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people
> who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves ...tormented
> by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
> wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
> those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest
> they should be shunned in their turn...
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville
>
> I apologize and am sorry for offending anyone with the opposing viewpoint I
> posted and my comments that followed. Please don't kick me out of the
> club...
>
> Respectfully Submitted with Congruence, Consistency, and Honesty wishing
> Peace of Mind to ALL you Peacemakers.
> MC
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 2:35 PM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Send OSList mailing list submissions to
> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
> >
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> >
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> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> > 2. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (John Watkins)
> > 3. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> > 4. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> > 5. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Michael M Pannwitz)
> > 6. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (john watkins)
> > 7. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (paul levy)
> > 8. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (koos at auryn.nl)
> > 9. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> > 10. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Amanda Bucklow)
> > 11. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Rosa Zubizarreta)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:35:06 -0700
> > From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAFDvDFhpP-VkN=
> > XZuY1QK7EJcn_cuz+qAb1QqQkT4szp9DPFpg at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
> here
> > is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought...
> that
> > I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> >
> > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in my
> > life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> > never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> > colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> > livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
> allow a
> > 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
> > above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
> > divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> > It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION.
> If
> > we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> > need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> > need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> > hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> > ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
> > have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> > ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate vaccine,
> it
> > is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> > something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
> INJECTION,
> > which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
> CONTROL
> > of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> > been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE
> > WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE
> > for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by those
> > whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
> >
> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
> those
> > who speak it...--George Orwell
> >
> > MC the MC
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> >
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220120/a115fea0/attachment-0001.html
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:38:52 -0800
> > From: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > Cc: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> > Message-ID: <45F81129-84C3-4B38-93AB-7B672AEC4CB9 at mac.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> > political agenda belongs on this list.
> >
> > Sent from John's iPhone
> >
> > > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?
> > > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
> > here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
> thought...
> > that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> > >
> > > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
> > my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> > never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> > colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> > livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
> allow a
> > 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
> > above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
> > divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> > It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION.
> If
> > we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> > need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> > need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> > hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> > ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
> > have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> > ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate vaccine,
> it
> > is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> > something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
> INJECTION,
> > which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
> CONTROL
> > of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> > been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECO
> > NOMY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
> > SCRIPTURE for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by
> design
> > by those whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
> > >
> > > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
> > those who speak it...--George Orwell
> > >
> > > MC the MC
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OSList mailing list
> > > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> >
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220120/e9aae0ba/attachment-0001.html
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:49:35 -0700
> > From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> > To: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
> > Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> > CAFDvDFg97hGa0KPZQnYf+yRZoztHpiLKzW_H4HTmj-XLVSfMcQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
> those
> > who speak it...--George Orwell
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> > > political agenda belongs on this list.
> > >
> > > Sent from John's iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> > > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?
> > > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
> > > here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
> > thought...
> > > that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> > >
> > > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
> my
> > > life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> > > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> > > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask
> and
> > > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> > > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
> vaccination. I
> > > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> > > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> > > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> > > never seen a vaccine t
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