[OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Amanda Bucklow and Michael Pannwitz
Mark Carmel
markacarmel at gmail.com
Sat Jan 22 12:24:36 PST 2022
To Amanda Bucklow,
Thanks for your feedback. You fell right into what I will call the
TocquevilleTRAP that is outlined in the thoughtful link provided by Rosa
Zubizarreta on Needle Points (Thanks again Rosa!). Please allow me to take
on your hit piece, Amanda, point by point.
But first I want to thank and commend Michael Pannwitz for your response!
You hit on points which i believe are profoundly wise. And thank you for
the story of Harrison getting his great book -The Practice of Peace -
published.
Fascinating Michael! You said Harrison's publisher rejected the book.
Amanda, what if Harrison did what he was told (as you told me), to hush up
- ...change the subject... and as Koos told me, to get lost and ... PLEASE
go play somewhere else...? Well I guess we may not have the genius of Open
Space Technology if Harrison would have taken no for an answer and allowed
others to silence him and cancel his book of discoveries. Thanks Harrison
not giving up or giving in to your critics!
________________
Michael Pannwitz, you said:
They (Harrison's publisher) felt it didn't fit into their program... this
was
not the end of the book....What happened?
... In no time flat the book was printed and distributed and later also
translated by folks in 8 countries around the globe in North America,
Europe, near and far Asia (from the European point of view), Australia,
the Caribic ...
Harrison called this phenomenon the "Global Chaordic Publication".
It is the string "Who is BS-ing Whom?" that instantly fired up my
synapses which resurfaced this phehomenon... and my thoughts later on.
Mulling over the current pandemic lets me wonder what incited the worst
pandemic on the globe.
Not surprising myself in any serious fashion I felt it is us ouselves...
like the creature in Pogo looking in a mirror seeing his enemy, see here
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_have_met_the_enemy
And what is it, at the core, that causes this disaster? Which virus is
that? What is the name of the disease this virus creates?
How about "control", the only real enemy of "selforganisation".
And who is best at controlling.
Yep, us.
What was the impedement to publishing "The Practice of Peace"? What
hindered an established, mainstream and well known publisher to turn
down a book from an author that had a vision?
... If we start controlling OSLIST it will lose its meaning...
Thanks again Michael for this profound wisdom, making two top tier points:
That the name of the REAL disease the Virus has caused is: CONTROL.... and,
that:
...control of the OS list will lose its meaning...
__________________
Amanda, you said the following which i will respond to point by point:
...One of the most important things about respectful disagreement is
congruence and consistency. I notice the following in your response to Koos:
I said I did not agree with the posted comments.
I guess you feel the vaccine works as promised despite all the deaths we
continue to see... good for you.
I have had covid twice, initial round and omicron and killed it with table
salt in 4 days.
I am happy to engage in respectful disagreement with those who are willing
to be called out on their mental models and I am calling you out, Mark, on
your manipulative arguments which will definitely feel like bullying to
those who find inconsistency and flip-flopping deeply disrespectful.
Please change the subject because this is going nowhere in terms of
learning and appreciation. It certainly does not acknowledge the grief and
loss of those who couldn?t kill the virus with ?table salt? in 4 days.
______________
OK, Amanda you are calling me out on my ...mental model... and want me to
change the subject because it has no learning and appreciation, and that I
fail to acknowledge the grief and loss of those who couldnt kill the virus
in 4 days using table salt? You call me a bully, and accuse me of being
disrespectful, a flip flopper and inconsistent? Wow, that is quite a pro
hit piece wrapped in intellectual language of a mediator. Impressive take
down attempt. Well, now i am calling you out. First, NO MA'AM, I will
not change the subject nor go away and play somewhere else as Koos directed
me. You fell right into the Tocqueville trap of seeking to silence, censor
and send away those who disagree with your opinions, or as you put it your
...mental model... You want to kick me out of the club, right? I offered
an alternative to doing nothing to kill the virus if one becomes sick out
of immense feelings i have to acknowledge the grief and loss by those who
could not kill the virus and who died or got gravely I'll. Like a lot of my
friends. To me you are the one being disingenuous and deeply disrespectful
by saying that Amanda. And I hope you too look in the mirror to see
yourself as an open space facilitator seeking to close down a conversation
by insult. If you did see value in the conversation, perhaps learning and
saving lives would result in your circle of influence. And as I alluded as
one of my motives, to help people who facilit8 OST to be more keenly aware
of keeping out of the Tocqueville Trap... Here is the quote again from the
Needle Points piece Rosa shared. I Respectfully request you read it along
with the rest of the link Rosa provided. Again I thank you for your
feedback regardless of how wrong and offensive I find it to be. I did say I
agree with John in part to keep haters (like you) off my back and to
enlighten us facilitators (by the way, I love your handle: Facilit8).. I
wish you wellness and hope and trust you see now Amanda how you fell into
the Tocqueville Trap:
One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a great
“liberty of opinion,” to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion forms,
it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday
life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville, like
James Madison, was concerned about this “the tyranny of the majority,”
which he saw as the Achilles’ heel of democracy. It isn’t only because
divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
it’s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
(indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start with).
The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts and
actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens in
a mass culture like America’s, because seemingly overnight even the
definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people
who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves ...tormented
by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest
they should be shunned in their turn...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville
I apologize and am sorry for offending anyone with the opposing viewpoint I
posted and my comments that followed. Please don't kick me out of the
club...
Respectfully Submitted with Congruence, Consistency, and Honesty wishing
Peace of Mind to ALL you Peacemakers.
MC
On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 2:35 PM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>
wrote:
> Send OSList mailing list submissions to
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> oslist-owner at lists.openspacetech.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> 2. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (John Watkins)
> 3. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> 4. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> 5. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Michael M Pannwitz)
> 6. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (john watkins)
> 7. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (paul levy)
> 8. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (koos at auryn.nl)
> 9. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> 10. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Amanda Bucklow)
> 11. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Rosa Zubizarreta)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:35:06 -0700
> From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID:
> <CAFDvDFhpP-VkN=
> XZuY1QK7EJcn_cuz+qAb1QqQkT4szp9DPFpg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But here
> is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought... that
> I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>
> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in my
> life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a
> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION. If
> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate vaccine, it
> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an INJECTION,
> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE
> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE
> for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by those
> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>
> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those
> who speak it...--George Orwell
>
> MC the MC
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220120/a115fea0/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:38:52 -0800
> From: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Cc: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID: <45F81129-84C3-4B38-93AB-7B672AEC4CB9 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> political agenda belongs on this list.
>
> Sent from John's iPhone
>
> > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought...
> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> >
> > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
> my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a
> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION. If
> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate vaccine, it
> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an INJECTION,
> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECO
> NOMY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
> SCRIPTURE for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design
> by those whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
> >
> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
> those who speak it...--George Orwell
> >
> > MC the MC
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220120/e9aae0ba/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:49:35 -0700
> From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> To: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
> Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAFDvDFg97hGa0KPZQnYf+yRZoztHpiLKzW_H4HTmj-XLVSfMcQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those
> who speak it...--George Orwell
>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com> wrote:
>
> > I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> > political agenda belongs on this list.
> >
> > Sent from John's iPhone
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
> > here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
> thought...
> > that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> >
> > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in my
> > life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> > never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> > colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> > livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
> allow a
> > 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
> > above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
> > divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> > It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION.
> If
> > we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> > need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> > need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> > hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> > ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
> > have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> > ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate vaccine,
> it
> > is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> > something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
> INJECTION,
> > which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
> CONTROL
> > of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> > been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE
> > WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE
> > for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by those
> > whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
> >
> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
> those
> > who speak it...--George Orwell
> >
> > MC the MC
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220120/997431a5/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:57:09 -0700
> From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> To: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
> Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAFDvDFiDc5UVxokF2ULU-LKs6ZGZk4_hZvisDHRR1mNJZxwJsg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I agree with you John...
>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com> wrote:
>
> > I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> > political agenda belongs on this list.
> >
> > Sent from John's iPhone
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
> > here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
> thought...
> > that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> >
> > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in my
> > life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> > never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> > colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> > livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
> allow a
> > 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
> > above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
> > divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> > It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION.
> If
> > we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> > need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> > need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> > hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> > ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
> > have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> > ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate vaccine,
> it
> > is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> > something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
> INJECTION,
> > which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
> CONTROL
> > of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> > been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE
> > WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE
> > for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by those
> > whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
> >
> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
> those
> > who speak it...--George Orwell
> >
> > MC the MC
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220120/158ebf9c/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 15:45:50 +0100
> From: Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz at gmail.com>
> To: Mark Carmel via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>,
> johnw536 at mac.com
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID: <de7562e9-4d09-ebf1-51c1-66a83ce7d356 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Dear Mark, John and all you other Peacemakers out there,
>
> when Harrison took the manuscript of "The Practice of Peace" to his
> publisher Berrett-Koehler at the beginning of the present millenium they
> felt it didn't fit into their program...
>
> He and everybody else were surprised about being surprised that this was
> not the end of the book.
> What happened?
>
> Not only believing but knowing what the force of selforganisation is
> capable of doing when finding enough space to unfold, Harrison signaled
> to all of us that the book can be printed and distributed without any
> strings attached.
> Or in othe words, expanded the space.
> What happened?
>
> In no time flat the book was printed and distributed and later also
> translated by folks in 8 countries around the globe in North America,
> Europe, near and far Asia (from the European point of view), Australia,
> the Caribic ... (see "A NOTE ON THIS PUBLICATION" on the second page of
> The Practice of Peace as published two years later by the Human Systems
> Dynamics Institute).
>
> Harrison called this phenomenon the "Global Chaordic
> Publication".
>
> It is the string "Who is BS-ing Whom?" that instantly fired up my
> synapses which resurfaced this phehomenon... and my thoughts later on.
>
> Mulling over the current pandemic lets me wonder what incited the worst
> pandemics on the globe.
> Not surprising myself in any serious fashion I felt it is us ouselves...
> like the creature in Pogo looking in a mirror seeing his enemy, see here
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_have_met_the_enemy
>
> And what is it, at the core, that causes this disaster? Which virus is
> that? What is the name of the disease this virus creates?
> How about "control", the only real enemy of "selforganisation".
> And who is best at controlling.
> Yep, us.
>
> What was the impedement to publishing "The Practice of Peace"? What
> hindered an established, mainstream and well known publisher to turn
> down a book from an author that had a vision?
>
> If we start controlling OSLIST it will lose its meaning.
>
> This does not mean that illegal content can be shown on OSLISt.
> In Germany, for instance, and other countries in which German is the
> main language and a dozen other countries it is illegal and punishable
> to deny the holocaust. It is a crime to spread such "opinions" punished
> in Germany by 3 months up to 5 years imprisonment.
>
> It seems to me that I would feel much better if our exchange is as broad
> as possible... it would expand the space for the most powerful and
> sustained force we know of.
>
> Greetings from Berlin where neighbors and friends and family come by on
> this sunny winterday with a bit of snow ... curious to see what I look
> like at the end of my 82nd year.
>
> Cheers
> mmp
>
>
>
> Am 20.01.2022 um 23:57 schrieb Mark Carmel via OSList:
> > I agree with you John...
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com
> > <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com>> wrote:
> >
> > I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> > political agenda belongs on this list.
> >
> > Sent from John's iPhone
> >
> >> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList
> >> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
> >> <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >> ?
> >> These are not my thoughts or my words.? I Do not know the author.
> >> But here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for
> >> a thought... that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest
> >> peacemakers:
> >>
> >> Quote from author unknown:? ?...Among all the vaccines I have
> >> known in my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles,
> >> rubella, chickenpox, hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I
> >> want to also add flu and pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine
> >> that forced me to wear a mask and maintain my social distance,
> >> even when you are fully vaccinated. I had never heard of a vaccine
> >> that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I had never heard
> >> of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I never saw
> >> discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> >> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I
> >> have never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between
> >> family, colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used
> >> to threaten livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a
> >> vaccine that would allow a 12-year-old to override parental
> >> consent. After all the vaccines I listed above, I have never seen
> >> a vaccine like this one, which discriminates, divides and judges
> >> society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens? It's a
> >> powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION.
> >> If we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and
> >> we still need to get a negative test after we are fully
> >> vaccinated, and we still need to wear a mask after we are fully
> >> vaccinated, and still be hospitalized after we have been fully
> >> vaccinated, it will likely come to ...It's time for us to admit
> >> that we've been completely deceived... I have decided to never
> >> refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a ...vaccine.. again if
> >> at all possible. ??It is not a legitimate vaccine, it is a
> >> manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> >> something it IS NOT.? So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
> >> INJECTION, which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL
> >> AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL of every aspect of our lives until every
> >> human being on this planet has been made a subject of the ONE
> >> WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as
> >> has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE for untold
> >> years.? This so-called virus was instituted by design by those
> >> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL...? -? B.S.
> >>
> >> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will
> >> hate those who speak it...--George Orwell
> >>
> >> MC the MC
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OSList mailing list
> >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> >> <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to
> >> OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> >> <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >>
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> >> <
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> >> Past archives can be viewed here:
> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> --
> Michael M Pannwitz
> Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin
> +49 30 7728000 mmpannwitz at gmail.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 08:03:39 -0800
> From: john watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
> To: Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz at gmail.com>
> Cc: Mark Carmel via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID: <5D75EC25-5C03-4315-8914-A51503E08A4D at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Michael, and Mark,
>
> I appreciate your thoughtful and eloquent response and exploration of the
> nature of open space speech and the difference between that and something
> like holocaust denial speech. I think therein lies my concern. As I said to
> Mark, I spoke my concern in ?I? statements, so as to make sure that folks
> would know it was my opinion about something, not an attempt to control.
> But I think your raising the question of the illegality in Germany of
> holocaust denial speech is the very point I was trying to make. I think
> there is a very fine line between something like holocaust denial speech
> and hate speech and harmful speech. I would call pandemic denial or vaccine
> denial speech that encourages people not to get vaccinated, and thus be
> more likely to get covid, get hospitalized, and die, while also being more
> likely to infect others along the way, is definitely at least harmful
> speech. The question for me then becomes, is a forum like ours a place
> where that kind of speech is appropriate, as muc
> h as we value open space and the encouragement of diversity of opinion it
> is all about?
>
> John W
>
> > On Jan 21, 2022, at 6:45 AM, Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Mark, John and all you other Peacemakers out there,
> >
> > when Harrison took the manuscript of "The Practice of Peace" to his
> publisher Berrett-Koehler at the beginning of the present millenium they
> felt it didn't fit into their program...
> >
> > He and everybody else were surprised about being surprised that this was
> not the end of the book.
> > What happened?
> >
> > Not only believing but knowing what the force of selforganisation is
> capable of doing when finding enough space to unfold, Harrison signaled to
> all of us that the book can be printed and distributed without any strings
> attached.
> > Or in othe words, expanded the space.
> > What happened?
> >
> > In no time flat the book was printed and distributed and later also
> translated by folks in 8 countries around the globe in North America,
> Europe, near and far Asia (from the European point of view), Australia, the
> Caribic ... (see "A NOTE ON THIS PUBLICATION" on the second page of The
> Practice of Peace as published two years later by the Human Systems
> Dynamics Institute).
> >
> > Harrison called this phenomenon the "Global Chaordic
> > Publication".
> >
> > It is the string "Who is BS-ing Whom?" that instantly fired up my
> synapses which resurfaced this phehomenon... and my thoughts later on.
> >
> > Mulling over the current pandemic lets me wonder what incited the worst
> pandemics on the globe.
> > Not surprising myself in any serious fashion I felt it is us ouselves...
> like the creature in Pogo looking in a mirror seeing his enemy, see here
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_have_met_the_enemy
> >
> > And what is it, at the core, that causes this disaster? Which virus is
> that? What is the name of the disease this virus creates?
> > How about "control", the only real enemy of "selforganisation".
> > And who is best at controlling.
> > Yep, us.
> >
> > What was the impedement to publishing "The Practice of Peace"? What
> hindered an established, mainstream and well known publisher to turn down a
> book from an author that had a vision?
> >
> > If we start controlling OSLIST it will lose its meaning.
> >
> > This does not mean that illegal content can be shown on OSLISt.
> > In Germany, for instance, and other countries in which German is the
> main language and a dozen other countries it is illegal and punishable to
> deny the holocaust. It is a crime to spread such "opinions" punished in
> Germany by 3 months up to 5 years imprisonment.
> >
> > It seems to me that I would feel much better if our exchange is as broad
> as possible... it would expand the space for the most powerful and
> sustained force we know of.
> >
> > Greetings from Berlin where neighbors and friends and family come by on
> this sunny winterday with a bit of snow ... curious to see what I look like
> at the end of my 82nd year.
> >
> > Cheers
> > mmp
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 20.01.2022 um 23:57 schrieb Mark Carmel via OSList:
> >> I agree with you John...
> >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:
> johnw536 at mac.com>> wrote:
> >> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> >> political agenda belongs on this list.
> >> Sent from John's iPhone
> >>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList
> >>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
> >>> <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> ?
> >>> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author.
> But here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for
> >>> a thought... that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest
> >>> peacemakers:
> >>>
> >>> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have
> >>> known in my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles,
> >>> rubella, chickenpox, hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I
> >>> want to also add flu and pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine
> >>> that forced me to wear a mask and maintain my social distance,
> >>> even when you are fully vaccinated. I had never heard of a vaccine
> >>> that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I had never heard
> >>> of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I never saw
> >>> discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> >>> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I
> >>> have never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between
> >>> family, colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used
> >>> to threaten livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a
> >>> vaccine that would allow a 12-year-old to override parental
> >>> consent. After all the vaccines I listed above, I have never seen
> >>> a vaccine like this one, which discriminates, divides and judges
> >>> society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens? It's a
> >>> powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION.
> >>> If we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and
> >>> we still need to get a negative test after we are fully
> >>> vaccinated, and we still need to wear a mask after we are fully
> >>> vaccinated, and still be hospitalized after we have been fully
> >>> vaccinated, it will likely come to ...It's time for us to admit
> >>> that we've been completely deceived... I have decided to never
> >>> refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a ...vaccine.. again if
> >>> at all possible. It is not a legitimate vaccine, it is a
> >>> manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> >>> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
> >>> INJECTION, which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL
> >>> AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL of every aspect of our lives until every
> >>> human being on this planet has been made a subject of the ONE
> >>> WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as
> >>> has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE for untold
> >>> years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by those
> >>> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
> >>>
> >>> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will
> >>> hate those who speak it...--George Orwell
> >>>
> >>> MC the MC
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> OSList mailing list
> >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> >>> <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> >>> OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> >>> <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >>>
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> >>> <
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OSList mailing list
> >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> >> Past archives can be viewed here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> > --
> > Michael M Pannwitz
> > Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin
> > +49 30 7728000 mmpannwitz at gmail.com
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 16:37:13 +0000
> From: paul levy <paul at cats3000.net>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Cc: Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz at gmail.com>, john watkins
> <johnw536 at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID:
> <CAAnJsbCp1gtTzWQj0ED=h=cc0=
> Wjt6WhAOVtNJLkwbihenT8xg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I quite enjoyed my Covid Booster jab. It was in a nice open space, what
> used to be a big clothing store called Top Shop (sadly another casualty of
> the rise of online shopping). There was a big poster of some silver
> leggings.
>
> A venue put to good use though. It certainly seemed like the right place.
> Wherever it happens...
>
> There were lots of smiles over masked noses, which were clearly invites to
> smile back. I was invited forward (no one forced me and I used my two
> feet). Lovely staff and volunteers and I can never turn down a free offer
> (part of my upbringing in North East London).
>
> I sat there, and then it was the right time. And that was it! Nothing more
> to do. It was over. Whatever happened happened because it did.
>
> My two feet took me off to breakfast in Pavilion Gardens where I enjoyed
> the view and a hot cup of community.
>
> The previous two jabs had been at Brighton Racecourse. It felt more like
> slow marching and the bar was closed. Nice folk though. And those jabs were
> free too, free of charge, freely invited.
>
> These are my stories, tales of light and dark, up and down, self and other,
> in and out, and higher up and further in ..!!!.
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022, 16:03 john watkins via OSList, <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> > Michael, and Mark,
> >
> > I appreciate your thoughtful and eloquent response and exploration of the
> > nature of open space speech and the difference between that and something
> > like holocaust denial speech. I think therein lies my concern. As I said
> to
> > Mark, I spoke my concern in ?I? statements, so as to make sure that folks
> > would know it was my opinion about something, not an attempt to control.
> > But I think your raising the question of the illegality in Germany of
> > holocaust denial speech is the very point I was trying to make. I think
> > there is a very fine line between something like holocaust denial speech
> > and hate speech and harmful speech. I would call pandemic denial or
> vaccine
> > denial speech that encourages people not to get vaccinated, and thus be
> > more likely to get covid, get hospitalized, and die, while also being
> more
> > likely to infect others along the way, is definitely at least harmful
> > speech. The question for me then becomes, is a forum like ours a place
> > where that kind of speech is appropriate, as much as we value open space
> > and the encouragement of diversity of opinion it is all about?
> >
> > John W
> >
> > > On Jan 21, 2022, at 6:45 AM, Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Mark, John and all you other Peacemakers out there,
> > >
> > > when Harrison took the manuscript of "The Practice of Peace" to his
> > publisher Berrett-Koehler at the beginning of the present millenium they
> > felt it didn't fit into their program...
> > >
> > > He and everybody else were surprised about being surprised that this
> was
> > not the end of the book.
> > > What happened?
> > >
> > > Not only believing but knowing what the force of selforganisation is
> > capable of doing when finding enough space to unfold, Harrison signaled
> to
> > all of us that the book can be printed and distributed without any
> strings
> > attached.
> > > Or in othe words, expanded the space.
> > > What happened?
> > >
> > > In no time flat the book was printed and distributed and later also
> > translated by folks in 8 countries around the globe in North America,
> > Europe, near and far Asia (from the European point of view), Australia,
> the
> > Caribic ... (see "A NOTE ON THIS PUBLICATION" on the second page of The
> > Practice of Peace as published two years later by the Human Systems
> > Dynamics Institute).
> > >
> > > Harrison called this phenomenon the "Global Chaordic
> > > Publication".
> > >
> > > It is the string "Who is BS-ing Whom?" that instantly fired up my
> > synapses which resurfaced this phehomenon... and my thoughts later on.
> > >
> > > Mulling over the current pandemic lets me wonder what incited the worst
> > pandemics on the globe.
> > > Not surprising myself in any serious fashion I felt it is us
> ouselves...
> > like the creature in Pogo looking in a mirror seeing his enemy, see here
> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_have_met_the_enemy
> > >
> > > And what is it, at the core, that causes this disaster? Which virus is
> > that? What is the name of the disease this virus creates?
> > > How about "control", the only real enemy of "selforganisation".
> > > And who is best at controlling.
> > > Yep, us.
> > >
> > > What was the impedement to publishing "The Practice of Peace"? What
> > hindered an established, mainstream and well known publisher to turn
> down a
> > book from an author that had a vision?
> > >
> > > If we start controlling OSLIST it will lose its meaning.
> > >
> > > This does not mean that illegal content can be shown on OSLISt.
> > > In Germany, for instance, and other countries in which German is the
> > main language and a dozen other countries it is illegal and punishable to
> > deny the holocaust. It is a crime to spread such "opinions" punished in
> > Germany by 3 months up to 5 years imprisonment.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that I would feel much better if our exchange is as
> broad
> > as possible... it would expand the space for the most powerful and
> > sustained force we know of.
> > >
> > > Greetings from Berlin where neighbors and friends and family come by on
> > this sunny winterday with a bit of snow ... curious to see what I look
> like
> > at the end of my 82nd year.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > mmp
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Am 20.01.2022 um 23:57 schrieb Mark Carmel via OSList:
> > >> I agree with you John...
> > >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com
> <mailto:
> > johnw536 at mac.com>> wrote:
> > >> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation
> and
> > >> political agenda belongs on this list.
> > >> Sent from John's iPhone
> > >>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList
> > >>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
> > >>> <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> ?
> > >>> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author.
> > But here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for
> > >>> a thought... that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest
> > >>> peacemakers:
> > >>>
> > >>> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have
> > >>> known in my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles,
> > >>> rubella, chickenpox, hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I
> > >>> want to also add flu and pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine
> > >>> that forced me to wear a mask and maintain my social distance,
> > >>> even when you are fully vaccinated. I had never heard of a vaccine
> > >>> that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I had never heard
> > >>> of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I never saw
> > >>> discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> > >>> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I
> > >>> have never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between
> > >>> family, colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used
> > >>> to threaten livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a
> > >>> vaccine that would allow a 12-year-old to override parental
> > >>> consent. After all the vaccines I listed above, I have never seen
> > >>> a vaccine like this one, which discriminates, divides and judges
> > >>> society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens? It's a
> > >>> powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION.
> > >>> If we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and
> > >>> we still need to get a negative test after we are fully
> > >>> vaccinated, and we still need to wear a mask after we are fully
> > >>> vaccinated, and still be hospitalized after we have been fully
> > >>> vaccinated, it will likely come to ...It's time for us to admit
> > >>> that we've been completely deceived... I have decided to never
> > >>> refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a ...vaccine.. again if
> > >>> at all possible. It is not a legitimate vaccine, it is a
> > >>> manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> > >>> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
> > >>> INJECTION, which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL
> > >>> AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL of every aspect of our lives until every
> > >>> human being on this planet has been made a subject of the ONE
> > >>> WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as
> > >>> has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE for untold
> > >>> years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by those
> > >>> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
> > >>>
> > >>> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will
> > >>> hate those who speak it...--George Orwell
> > >>>
> > >>> MC the MC
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> OSList mailing list
> > >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > >>> <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> > >>> OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > >>> <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > >>>
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > >>> <
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> > >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
> > >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> > >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> OSList mailing list
> > >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > >> Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> > > --
> > > Michael M Pannwitz
> > > Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin
> > > +49 30 7728000 mmpannwitz at gmail.com
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220121/fcacb02a/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:15:01 +0100
> From: <koos at auryn.nl>
> To: "'World wide Open Space Technology email list'"
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Cc: "'Mark Carmel'" <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID: <026801d80efb$304184d0$90c48e70$@auryn.nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Mark,
>
>
>
> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>
>
>
> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but
> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text you
> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you
> post it in the first place?
>
>
>
> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool of
> himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
>
>
>
> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>
>
>
> Koos
>
>
>
> Van: OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> Namens Mark Carmel
> via OSList
> Verzonden: donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
> Aan: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
> CC: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>; World wide Open Space Technology
> email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Onderwerp: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>
>
>
> I agree with you John...
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:
> johnw536 at mac.com> > wrote:
>
> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> political agenda belongs on this list.
>
> Sent from John's iPhone
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> >
> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought...
> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>
> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in my
> life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a
> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates, di
> vides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION. If
> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate vaccine, it
> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an INJECTION,
> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONO
> MY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
> SCRIPTURE for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design
> by those whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>
> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those
> who speak it...--George Orwell
>
>
>
> MC the MC
>
> _______________________________________________
> OSList mailing list
> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
> OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> Past archives can be viewed here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220121/3bb0c149/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 13:06:06 -0700
> From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> To: Koos de Heer <koos at auryn.nl>
> Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAFDvDFhErqodJfydgcjz8Z0yxUoSNgx51j36z6jTmJneVdBWUQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Koos,
> Thanks for the feedback...You asked why? Because we are supposed to be the
> Stewards of Open Space, as such we respect opposing viewpoints. Right?
> But You feel bullied? Wow, that is from a comment you disagree with? I
> said I did not agree with the posted comments just sharing an opposing
> viewpoint and agreed with John so as to keep haters off my back who seek to
> sensor comments that go off their desired script. This shows how closed
> the world has become to open input, opposing viewpoints, and passionate
> feelings some folks have. I guess you feel the vaccine works as promised
> despite all the deaths we continue to see... good for you. I have had covid
> twice, initial round and omicron and killed it with table salt in 4 days..
> i am happy you dont think anyone is BS-ing anyone... The other reason I
> posted that opposing viewpoint to the open space list is to illustrate my
> new law of open space... another truism... Practice leadership loyalty so
> that you only say and tell leaders what they want to hear or else you will
> be censored, blackballed, and retaliated against... kicked out of the
> circle of former friends... The quote is profound truth.... and if you look
> in the mirror you may see yourself. I hope you feel safe now... And, Koos,
> I do not believe you have in any way made a fool of yourself by
> responding. Points well taken. All the best to you... Will think twice B4
> posting opposing viewpoints again. Thanks again for your feedback.
> Respectfully submitted!
>
> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those
> who speak it...--George Orwell
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 12:15 PM <koos at auryn.nl> wrote:
>
> > Dear Mark,
> >
> >
> >
> > The one and only burning question I have is: why???
> >
> >
> >
> > Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but
> > posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
> > about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text you
> > posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
> > disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you
> > post it in the first place?
> >
> >
> >
> > Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool of
> > himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
> >
> >
> >
> > If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
> > bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
> >
> >
> >
> > Koos
> >
> >
> >
> > *Van:* OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> *Namens *Mark
> > Carmel via OSList
> > *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
> > *Aan:* John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
> > *CC:* Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>; World wide Open Space
> > Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree with you John...
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com> wrote:
> >
> > I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> > political agenda belongs on this list.
> >
> > Sent from John's iPhone
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> >
> > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
> > here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
> thought...
> > that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> >
> > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in my
> > life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> > never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> > colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> > livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
> allow a
> > 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
> > above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
> > divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> > It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION.
> If
> > we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> > need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> > need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> > hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> > ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
> > have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> > ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate vaccine,
> it
> > is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> > something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
> INJECTION,
> > which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
> CONTROL
> > of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> > been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE
> > WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE
> > for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by those
> > whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
> >
> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
> those
> > who speak it...--George Orwell
> >
> >
> >
> > MC the MC
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220121/a5fbd75e/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:21:09 +0000
> From: Amanda Bucklow <amanda at facilit8.com>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID: <659A90B0-D7B6-4D41-AC94-914694A0A58A at facilit8.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Mark,
>
> One of the most important things about respectful disagreement is
> congruence and consistency. I notice the following in your response to Koos:
>
> I said I did not agree with the posted comments.
> I guess you feel the vaccine works as promised despite all the deaths we
> continue to see... good for you.
> I have had covid twice, initial round and omicron and killed it with table
> salt in 4 days.
>
> I am happy to engage in respectful disagreement with those who are willing
> to be called out on their mental models and I am calling you out, Mark, on
> your manipulative arguments which will definitely feel like bullying to
> those who find inconsistency and flip-flopping deeply disrespectful.
>
> Please change the subject because this is going nowhere in terms of
> learning and appreciation. It certainly does not acknowledge the grief and
> loss of those who couldn?t kill the virus with ?table salt? in 4 days.
>
> kind regards
> Amanda
>
> Amanda Bucklow
> Independent Commercial Mediator
>
>
> http://AmandaBucklow.co.uk
> +44 7976 924995
> linkedin.com/in/amanda-bucklow
>
>
>
> This e-mail may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are
> not the intended recipient, please advise the sender immediately by reply
> e-mail and delete this message and any attachments without retaining a copy.
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 21 Jan 2022, at 20:06, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> >
> > Koos,
> > Thanks for the feedback...You asked why? Because we are supposed to be
> the Stewards of Open Space, as such we respect opposing viewpoints. Right?
> But You feel bullied? Wow, that is from a comment you disagree with? I
> said I did not agree with the posted comments just sharing an opposing
> viewpoint and agreed with John so as to keep haters off my back who seek to
> sensor comments that go off their desired script. This shows how closed
> the world has become to open input, opposing viewpoints, and passionate
> feelings some folks have. I guess you feel the vaccine works as promised
> despite all the deaths we continue to see... good for you. I have had covid
> twice, initial round and omicron and killed it with table salt in 4 days..
> i am happy you dont think anyone is BS-ing anyone... The other reason I
> posted that opposing viewpoint to the open space list is to illustrate my
> new law of open space... another truism... Practice leadership loyalty so
> that you only say and tell leaders what
> they want to hear or else you will be censored, blackballed, and
> retaliated against... kicked out of the circle of former friends... The
> quote is profound truth.... and if you look in the mirror you may see
> yourself. I hope you feel safe now... And, Koos, I do not believe you have
> in any way made a fool of yourself by responding. Points well taken. All
> the best to you... Will think twice B4 posting opposing viewpoints again.
> Thanks again for your feedback. Respectfully submitted!
> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
> those who speak it...--George Orwell
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 12:15 PM <koos at auryn.nl <mailto:koos at auryn.nl>>
> wrote:
> > Dear Mark,
> >
> >
> >
> > The one and only burning question I have is: why???
> >
> >
> >
> > Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but
> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text you
> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you
> post it in the first place?
> >
> >
> >
> > Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool
> of himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
> >
> >
> >
> > If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
> >
> >
> >
> > Koos
> >
> >
> >
> > Van: OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
> oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>> Namens Mark Carmel via OSList
> > Verzonden: donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
> > Aan: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com>>
> > CC: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com>>;
> World wide Open Space Technology email list <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> > Onderwerp: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree with you John...
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:
> johnw536 at mac.com>> wrote:
> >
> > I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
> political agenda belongs on this list.
> >
> > Sent from John's iPhone
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> >
> > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought...
> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
> >
> > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
> my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a
> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION. If
> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate vaccine, it
> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an INJECTION,
> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECO
> NOMY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
> SCRIPTURE for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design
> by those whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
> >
> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
> those who speak it...--George Orwell
> >
> >
> >
> > MC the MC
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
> OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <
> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >_______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220122/142b2477/attachment.html>
More information about the OSList
mailing list