[OSList] Canada Conundrum - reply to Chris Corrigan
Katherine Jennings
forcetwolove at gmail.com
Thu Apr 7 14:38:07 PDT 2022
This season has given an invitation to us, this season invites us to extend
and receive grace! I give my self grace, I give my self grace! I have
extra grace and I extend it to YOU
Respectfully
K. Sweetness
On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 5:09 PM Mark Carmel via OSList <
oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> Chris,
> Wow, talk about taking it personal! I am anti fascist also, a Jew. So
> you got it wrong pal. Who anointed you the OST Judge? I ain't judging
> nothing except the fake news who drive these divisions by playing the race
> and nazi card. What news do you watch to get these facts? I asked what do
> people think. You unleashed hate brother. Go get some rest...
> MC
>
> On Sat, Feb 19, 2022, 2:38 PM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Send OSList mailing list submissions to
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>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: OSList Digest, Vol 130, Issue 7 (Mark Carmel)
>> 2. What could dialogue look like between people of Russia and
>> people of the West? (Lucas Cioffi)
>> 3. Re: What could dialogue look like between people of Russia
>> and people of the West? (Michael Herman)
>> 4. Re: Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
>> comment (Chris Corrigan)
>> 5. Re: What could dialogue look like between people of Russia
>> and people of the West? (paul levy)
>> 6. Re: What could dialogue look like between people of Russia
>> and people of the West? (Romy Shovelton)
>> 7. Re: Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
>> comment (David Osborne)
>> 8. Re: Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
>> comment (Romy Shovelton)
>> 9. Re: Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
>> comment (John Watkins)
>> 10. Re: Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
>> comment (Amanda Bucklow)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:20:49 -0700
>> From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] OSList Digest, Vol 130, Issue 7
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAFDvDFgxhXU2=
>> csztBBFuRnZGOJdhLkE7WvrmdcEMJRJvS8A6w at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Thank you for the clarification and excellent information Glenn and John.
>> I sincerely appreciate it and wish you and all concerned the very BEST!
>> MC
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 2:52 PM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Send OSList mailing list submissions to
>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > oslist-owner at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi comment
>> > (Mark Carmel)
>> > 2. Re: Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
>> > comment (Glenn Waters)
>> > 3. Re: Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
>> > comment (john watkins)
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:56:20 -0700
>> > From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > Subject: [OSList] Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
>> > comment
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <
>> > CAFDvDFg7QCLDXvEWbe4D5-mFOX2pq0NpBT2fbqj6tw5-5AQqfw at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > I have tried my best to bite my lip Regarding the dude's comment that
>> all
>> > of the truckers must be white supremest nazi types ... What a ridiculous
>> > belief... that's being fed by the fake news that paints every Person
>> > protesting for Freedom as a white supremest. Yeah, Total BS.... We are
>> > open space technology facilitators we believe in freedom ... right? Or
>> have
>> > I misunderstood something? And what did Canada decide to do? They
>> decided
>> > to go and seize the bank accounts and the crypto wallets of the
>> > protesters.. Now what sounds more like nazi tactics, protesting for
>> > freedom or seizing people's bank accounts without a trial?
>> > -------------- next part --------------
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>> > >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 13:03:35 -0500
>> > From: "Glenn Waters" <glenn at watrs.ca>
>> > To: oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to
>> > nazi comment
>> > Message-ID: <e05f4c61-39e8-44e5-8fe8-043fc5f98ba3 at www.fastmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> >
>> > Enough of the nazi crap, please. I can't answer if you've misunderstood
>> > something but let me share some facts about what is going on.
>> >
>> > In general this is a peaceful group of people. There are however a
>> number
>> > of people attending that are not peaceful. They harass, assault
>> (physically
>> > and verbally), and torment people who live in this area.
>> >
>> > A large portion of the downtown is closed because it has been taken
>> over.
>> > This is having real affect on those businesses that are already hanging
>> on
>> > by their fingernails to stay in business.
>> >
>> > For the residents living in this area the only two nearby grocery stores
>> > have closed because they fear for the safety of their staff. Many other
>> > stores and restaurants are closed for safety reasons.
>> >
>> > Nazi flags have been flown, as have other symbols that are commonly
>> > associated with hate and supremacy.
>> >
>> > Well documented leaders of white supremacists groups are attending. This
>> > does appear to be the minority, but I don't have data. Some have been
>> > arrested in the last few days.
>> >
>> > Shifting to opinion.
>> >
>> > I don't think of what is happening a few kilometres from my home as a
>> > protest anymore. It is an occupation that is taking away from the
>> freedoms
>> > of those who choose to live and work in Ottawa.
>> >
>> > The occupiers assets are not being seized. They are being frozen. As
>> this
>> > is an occupation I am perfectly fine that.
>> >
>> > The occupiers are incoherent. When asked about their demands it ranges
>> > from "Freedom." to "We want to take over the government." There is
>> little
>> > substantiation behind any of the remarks. Most engagements with the
>> > occupiers does not result in any understanding of what they actually
>> want.
>> > My understanding is that the original premise of the protests was around
>> > don't force us to be vaccinated, wear masks, or have to have/show a
>> vaccine
>> > passport.
>> >
>> > I say go ahead and protest. That is your right and I believe in and
>> > support those rights. Occupation is not on.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2022, at 11:56, Mark Carmel via OSList wrote:
>> > > I have tried my best to bite my lip Regarding the dude's comment that
>> > all of the truckers must be white supremest nazi types ... What a
>> > ridiculous belief... that's being fed by the fake news that paints every
>> > Person protesting for Freedom as a white supremest. Yeah, Total BS....
>> We
>> > are open space technology facilitators we believe in freedom ... right?
>> Or
>> > have I misunderstood something? And what did Canada decide to do? They
>> > decided to go and seize the bank accounts and the crypto wallets of the
>> > protesters.. Now what sounds more like nazi tactics, protesting for
>> > freedom or seizing people's bank accounts without a trial?
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > OSList mailing list
>> > > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL: <
>> >
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220218/571ae0fc/attachment-0001.html
>> > >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 12:07:01 -0800
>> > From: john watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to
>> > nazi comment
>> > Message-ID: <FD72DA66-53C5-4F76-88EB-4C3ADE2BF100 at mac.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> >
>> > Glen has the facts right.
>> > The flags include the Confederate battle flag.
>> > And it might be noted that 55% of the funding for this occupation is
>> > coming from right wing Christian groups in the US.
>> > And that the national truckers association in Canada has said it does
>> not
>> > represent Canadian truckers.
>> > And the vaccination rate among Canadian truckers is between 83% and 90%.
>> >
>> > John Watkins
>> >
>> > > On Feb 18, 2022, at 10:03 AM, Glenn Waters via OSList <
>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Enough of the nazi crap, please. I can't answer if you've
>> misunderstood
>> > something but let me share some facts about what is going on.
>> > >
>> > > In general this is a peaceful group of people. There are however a
>> > number of people attending that are not peaceful. They harass, assault
>> > (physically and verbally), and torment people who live in this area.
>> > >
>> > > A large portion of the downtown is closed because it has been taken
>> > over. This is having real affect on those businesses that are already
>> > hanging on by their fingernails to stay in business.
>> > >
>> > > For the residents living in this area the only two nearby grocery
>> stores
>> > have closed because they fear for the safety of their staff. Many other
>> > stores and restaurants are closed for safety reasons.
>> > >
>> > > Nazi flags have been flown, as have other symbols that are commonly
>> > associated with hate and supremacy.
>> > >
>> > > Well documented leaders of white supremacists groups are attending.
>> This
>> > does appear to be the minority, but I don't have data. Some have been
>> > arrested in the last few days.
>> > >
>> > > Shifting to opinion.
>> > >
>> > > I don't think of what is happening a few kilometres from my home as a
>> > protest anymore. It is an occupation that is taking away from the
>> freedoms
>> > of those who choose to live and work in Ottawa.
>> > >
>> > > The occupiers assets are not being seized. They are being frozen. As
>> > this is an occupation I am perfectly fine that.
>> > >
>> > > The occupiers are incoherent. When asked about their demands it ranges
>> > from "Freedom." to "We want to take over the government." There is
>> little
>> > substantiation behind any of the remarks. Most engagements with the
>> > occupiers does not result in any understanding of what they actually
>> want.
>> > My understanding is that the original premise of the protests was around
>> > don't force us to be vaccinated, wear masks, or have to have/show a
>> vaccine
>> > passport.
>> > >
>> > > I say go ahead and protest. That is your right and I believe in and
>> > support those rights. Occupation is not on.
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2022, at 11:56, Mark Carmel via OSList wrote:
>> > >> I have tried my best to bite my lip Regarding the dude's comment that
>> > all of the truckers must be white supremest nazi types ... What a
>> > ridiculous belief... that's being fed by the fake news that paints every
>> > Person protesting for Freedom as a white supremest. Yeah, Total BS....
>> We
>> > are open space technology facilitators we believe in freedom ... right?
>> Or
>> > have I misunderstood something? And what did Canada decide to do? They
>> > decided to go and seize the bank accounts and the crypto wallets of the
>> > protesters.. Now what sounds more like nazi tactics, protesting for
>> > freedom or seizing people's bank accounts without a trial?
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> OSList mailing list
>> > >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
>> > OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> <
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
>> > >> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > OSList mailing list
>> > > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
>> > OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> <
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
>> > > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
>> >
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Subject: Digest Footer
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > End of OSList Digest, Vol 130, Issue 7
>> > **************************************
>> >
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:35:32 -0500
>> From: Lucas Cioffi <lucas at qiqochat.com>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: [OSList] What could dialogue look like between people of
>> Russia and people of the West?
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> CAEj+rxpyGm1iyYhDtzaX8F27rC7a04jALbShjh-Q0OCg4OsNHA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Dear OSLIST,
>>
>>
>> Does anyone want to try opening up some dialogue channels between the
>> people of Russia and the people of the West? It's way too late to affect
>> the current situation in Ukraine, but dialogue could be helpful for the
>> long term.
>>
>>
>> I believe that if the people speak with each other directly
>> and (eventually) on a large enough scale, then there is a strong chance
>> for
>> understanding to be built, less us-vs.-them thinking, and that would give
>> political leaders flexibility to choose options other than war to solve
>> big
>> problems.
>>
>>
>> It doesn't look like many are doing anything like this yet. With a quick
>> Google search I could only find the Carnegie Moscow Center
>> <
>> https://carnegiemoscow.org/specialprojects/relaunchingusrussiadialogueonglobalchallenges/?lang=en
>> >
>> as
>> an organization interested in a participatory US-Russia dialogue.
>>
>>
>> Assuming there was an unlimited budget, how could a dialogue be designed?
>> Is anyone interested in working on something like this?
>>
>>
>> Lucas Cioffi
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 11:00:14 -0700
>> From: Michael Herman <michael at michaelherman.com>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] What could dialogue look like between people of
>> Russia and people of the West?
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAD8j=QGHRB7CaSOfcHCGZ=
>> mMrj65CwQ6+WRKQB-XWRO04QbqOQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> I know that this scale of dialogue is what Qiqo was originally built for,
>> Lucas. So I'm glad to see you asking this question. I wonder if the
>> folks
>> at helena.org would appreciate it. They did a small-sample program
>> "American in One Room," a weekend gathering, folks flown in from all 50
>> states, as I recall, in conjunction with the NYTimes and some folks at U
>> of
>> Chicago.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> --
>>
>> Michael Herman
>> Michael Herman Associates
>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>>
>> MichaelHerman.com
>> OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 10:35 AM Lucas Cioffi via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear OSLIST,
>> >
>> >
>> > Does anyone want to try opening up some dialogue channels between the
>> > people of Russia and the people of the West? It's way too late to
>> affect
>> > the current situation in Ukraine, but dialogue could be helpful for the
>> > long term.
>> >
>> >
>> > I believe that if the people speak with each other directly
>> > and (eventually) on a large enough scale, then there is a strong chance
>> for
>> > understanding to be built, less us-vs.-them thinking, and that would
>> give
>> > political leaders flexibility to choose options other than war to solve
>> big
>> > problems.
>> >
>> >
>> > It doesn't look like many are doing anything like this yet. With a
>> quick
>> > Google search I could only find the Carnegie Moscow Center
>> > <
>> https://carnegiemoscow.org/specialprojects/relaunchingusrussiadialogueonglobalchallenges/?lang=en>
>> as
>> > an organization interested in a participatory US-Russia dialogue.
>> >
>> >
>> > Assuming there was an unlimited budget, how could a dialogue be
>> designed?
>> > Is anyone interested in working on something like this?
>> >
>> >
>> > Lucas Cioffi
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:27:05 -0800
>> From: Chris Corrigan <chris at chriscorrigan.com>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to
>> nazi comment
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAO8x+WDcs7jkVZJXpRBYAwYU37N=
>> qfsw14ahaDP1V-Boi3j3kw at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Mark:
>>
>> I have mostly been ignoring your posts around this but I have to speak out
>> now.
>>
>> The leaders of the protest in Ottawa who have now been arrested include
>> people who are open, brazen white supremacists, anti-Semites,
>> anti-indigenous. Their views are all over the Internet. There are multiple
>> far right and racist groups and leaders in this protest. There are flying
>> their own flags and wearing their colours. They are not hiding. They are
>> not just misunderstood people. They are openly promoting fascism, racism,
>> white supremacy, xenophobia and anti-Senitism. There is an unbelievable
>> amount of hate being spouted all over the place by these protestors. Most
>> of those who have followed them down this rabbit hole have failed to, or
>> just refused to, dissociate themselves from these people or their views.
>> There are very few people out there saying that these people don?t
>> represent them. Most who disagree with these views have long ago left the
>> protest site.
>>
>> Their objectives when they arrived in Ottawa were to sign an MOU with the
>> Governor-General and the unelected Senate of the country to overthrow
>> Parliament. They were funded by donations that came mostly from outside
>> the
>> country, mostly by Americans.
>>
>> These facts are not in dispute.
>>
>> Now I strongly believe in the right to protest. I understand people who
>> are
>> frustrated by public health restrictions but the idea that a group of
>> people who broke hundreds of laws, who occupied the capital untouched for
>> THREE WEEKS and set up bouncy castles and hit tubs are somehow ?living in
>> a
>> tyranny? is an insult to the vast numbers of humans who struggle against
>> oppression, genocide, and repression all over the world INCLUDING those
>> who
>> are arrested and brutalized defending their own Indigenous territories
>> here
>> in Canada today.
>>
>> Open space is about passion bounded by responsibility. It acknowledges
>> that
>> you have the ability to create conversation and to take responsibility for
>> what you care about.
>>
>> And so I canno longer let these messages on this list pass by without
>> taking the responsibility to point out that defense of these protestors
>> and
>> especially the characterization of the racists and white supremacists in
>> the group as a few bad apples is deeply offensive to the hundreds of
>> people
>> of colour, Jews, Muslims, LGBTQ and indigenous people on this list. I beg
>> of you that you reflect on who you are taking to in this forum and pause
>> for some self-reflection.
>>
>> There is simply no place in the world to ?yes but? when it comes to these
>> ideas. If you passionately feel that you should be allowed to hate, or
>> support and defend the right to promote hate, then that is you certainly
>> have a right. But I have a responsibility to point out the company you are
>> keeping and to denounce you.
>>
>> Mark, I firmly believe that you have not understood the essence of Open
>> Space and your misunderstanding or willful ignorance of this situation
>> leading conflation of what we are doing in the world as facilitators with
>> the hate being spouted in Ottawa is deeply offensive.
>>
>> I?m pointing this out to you and asking you to stop dragging Open Space
>> into this. I find your opinions inaccurate, untrustworthy, and intolerant.
>> There are many ways we can discuss freedom without defending fascists. But
>> if you insist on defending fascists I will speak up against you and defend
>> the dignity and rights of humans to live free from hate. I am anti-fascist
>> and anti-racist and I won?t let these ideas stand unchallenged.
>>
>> Chris.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 10:05 AM Glenn Waters via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Enough of the nazi crap, please. I can't answer if you've misunderstood
>> > something but let me share some facts about what is going on.
>> >
>> > In general this is a peaceful group of people. There are however a
>> number
>> > of people attending that are not peaceful. They harass, assault
>> (physically
>> > and verbally), and torment people who live in this area.
>> >
>> > A large portion of the downtown is closed because it has been taken
>> over.
>> > This is having real affect on those businesses that are already hanging
>> on
>> > by their fingernails to stay in business.
>> >
>> > For the residents living in this area the only two nearby grocery stores
>> > have closed because they fear for the safety of their staff. Many other
>> > stores and restaurants are closed for safety reasons.
>> >
>> > Nazi flags have been flown, as have other symbols that are commonly
>> > associated with hate and supremacy.
>> >
>> > Well documented leaders of white supremacists groups are attending. This
>> > does appear to be the minority, but I don't have data. Some have been
>> > arrested in the last few days.
>> >
>> > Shifting to opinion.
>> >
>> > I don't think of what is happening a few kilometres from my home as a
>> > protest anymore. It is an occupation that is taking away from the
>> freedoms
>> > of those who choose to live and work in Ottawa.
>> >
>> > The occupiers assets are not being seized. They are being frozen. As
>> this
>> > is an occupation I am perfectly fine that.
>> >
>> > The occupiers are incoherent. When asked about their demands it ranges
>> > from "Freedom." to "We want to take over the government." There is
>> little
>> > substantiation behind any of the remarks. Most engagements with the
>> > occupiers does not result in any understanding of what they actually
>> want.
>> > My understanding is that the original premise of the protests was around
>> > don't force us to be vaccinated, wear masks, or have to have/show a
>> vaccine
>> > passport.
>> >
>> > I say go ahead and protest. That is your right and I believe in and
>> > support those rights. Occupation is not on.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2022, at 11:56, Mark Carmel via OSList wrote:
>> >
>> > I have tried my best to bite my lip Regarding the dude's comment that
>> all
>> > of the truckers must be white supremest nazi types ... What a ridiculous
>> > belief... that's being fed by the fake news that paints every Person
>> > protesting for Freedom as a white supremest. Yeah, Total BS.... We are
>> > open space technology facilitators we believe in freedom ... right? Or
>> have
>> > I misunderstood something? And what did Canada decide to do? They
>> decided
>> > to go and seize the bank accounts and the crypto wallets of the
>> > protesters.. Now what sounds more like nazi tactics, protesting for
>> > freedom or seizing people's bank accounts without a trial?
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> CHRIS CORRIGAN
>> Blog and resources: http://www.chriscorrigan.com
>> Harvest Moon Consultants: https://www.harvestmoonconsultants.com
>>
>> Located on Nex?wle?lex?wm (Bowen Island), Sk?wx?wu?7mesh territory,
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> CHRIS CORRIGAN
>> Blog and resources: http://www.chriscorrigan.com
>> Harvest Moon Consultants: https://www.harvestmoonconsultants.com
>>
>> Located on Nex?wle?lex?wm (Bowen Island), Sk?wx?wu?7mesh territory,
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 18:31:55 +0000
>> From: paul levy <paul at cats3000.net>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] What could dialogue look like between people of
>> Russia and people of the West?
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAAnJsbAntNN62RhqBVMt72o25evVobw7R=
>> HMNwwxuEJT_j8mnA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Wonderful thought, Lucas.
>>
>> I think the leading thought of Marvin Weisbord comes in here as a possible
>> invitational thought: Discovering Common Ground.
>>
>> Warm wishes,
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022, 17:35 Lucas Cioffi via OSList, <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear OSLIST,
>> >
>> >
>> > Does anyone want to try opening up some dialogue channels between the
>> > people of Russia and the people of the West? It's way too late to
>> affect
>> > the current situation in Ukraine, but dialogue could be helpful for the
>> > long term.
>> >
>> >
>> > I believe that if the people speak with each other directly
>> > and (eventually) on a large enough scale, then there is a strong chance
>> for
>> > understanding to be built, less us-vs.-them thinking, and that would
>> give
>> > political leaders flexibility to choose options other than war to solve
>> big
>> > problems.
>> >
>> >
>> > It doesn't look like many are doing anything like this yet. With a
>> quick
>> > Google search I could only find the Carnegie Moscow Center
>> > <
>> https://carnegiemoscow.org/specialprojects/relaunchingusrussiadialogueonglobalchallenges/?lang=en>
>> as
>> > an organization interested in a participatory US-Russia dialogue.
>> >
>> >
>> > Assuming there was an unlimited budget, how could a dialogue be
>> designed?
>> > Is anyone interested in working on something like this?
>> >
>> >
>> > Lucas Cioffi
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 18:36:48 +0000
>> From: Romy Shovelton <romy.shovelton at gmail.com>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] What could dialogue look like between people of
>> Russia and people of the West?
>> Message-ID: <35B01A56-B6B2-4A88-84DA-C61E121CEBCD at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> I love your idea Lucas?? Why not ?! I?m not sure that I?d be a reliable
>> partner in the venture?. Being constantly tied up in the daily life of my
>> retreat centre?. And I shall certainly applaud from the sidelines and pop
>> in from time to time if this happens?.
>>
>> In deep appreciation
>>
>> ?
>>
>> > On 19 Feb 2022, at 18:00, Michael Herman via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > I know that this scale of dialogue is what Qiqo was originally built
>> for, Lucas. So I'm glad to see you asking this question. I wonder if the
>> folks at helena.org <http://helena.org/> would appreciate it. They did
>> a small-sample program "American in One Room," a weekend gathering, folks
>> flown in from all 50 states, as I recall, in conjunction with the NYTimes
>> and some folks at U of Chicago.
>> >
>> > Michael
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Michael Herman
>> > Michael Herman Associates
>> > 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>> >
>> > MichaelHerman.com <http://michaelherman.com/>
>> > OpenSpaceWorld.org <http://openspaceworld.org/>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 10:35 AM Lucas Cioffi via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
>> wrote:
>> > Dear OSLIST,
>> >
>> > Does anyone want to try opening up some dialogue channels between the
>> people of Russia and the people of the West? It's way too late to affect
>> the current situation in Ukraine, but dialogue could be helpful for the
>> long term.
>> >
>> > I believe that if the people speak with each other directly and
>> (eventually) on a large enough scale, then there is a strong chance for
>> understanding to be built, less us-vs.-them thinking, and that would give
>> political leaders flexibility to choose options other than war to solve big
>> problems.
>> >
>> > It doesn't look like many are doing anything like this yet. With a
>> quick Google search I could only find the Carnegie Moscow Center <
>> https://carnegiemoscow.org/specialprojects/relaunchingusrussiadialogueonglobalchallenges/?lang=en>
>> as an organization interested in a participatory US-Russia dialogue.
>> >
>> > Assuming there was an unlimited budget, how could a dialogue be
>> designed? Is anyone interested in working on something like this?
>> >
>> > Lucas Cioffi
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
>> OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> >_______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>
>> Romy Shovelton
>> Executive Director
>>
>> Wikima & the 5* Tyddyn Retreat
>> Mid Wales Venue & Holiday Cottages
>> www.walescottageandvenue.com
>>
>> romy at walescottageandvenue.com
>> romy.shovelton at gmail.com
>> +44 (0) 7767 370739
>>
>> Tyddyn y Pwll, Carno, Caersws
>> Powys, SY17 5JU, Wales, UK
>>
>> Instagram: tyddynretreat
>> Facebook: Tyddyn Retreat
>>
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>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220219/1b6fa645/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 13:38:38 -0500
>> From: David Osborne <dosborne at change-fusion.com>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to
>> nazi comment
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> CANQfh8_8sLXggWDAX3tGpH-7tNdzKsq5dgtmG3pgsuKRfWPfNQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Thank you Chris for sharing your perspective from a Canadian in the US who
>> is not as close to what is actually going on there.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 1:27 PM Chris Corrigan via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Mark:
>> >
>> > I have mostly been ignoring your posts around this but I have to speak
>> out
>> > now.
>> >
>> > The leaders of the protest in Ottawa who have now been arrested include
>> > people who are open, brazen white supremacists, anti-Semites,
>> > anti-indigenous. Their views are all over the Internet. There are
>> multiple
>> > far right and racist groups and leaders in this protest. There are
>> flying
>> > their own flags and wearing their colours. They are not hiding. They are
>> > not just misunderstood people. They are openly promoting fascism,
>> racism,
>> > white supremacy, xenophobia and anti-Senitism. There is an unbelievable
>> > amount of hate being spouted all over the place by these protestors.
>> Most
>> > of those who have followed them down this rabbit hole have failed to, or
>> > just refused to, dissociate themselves from these people or their views.
>> > There are very few people out there saying that these people don?t
>> > represent them. Most who disagree with these views have long ago left
>> the
>> > protest site.
>> >
>> > Their objectives when they arrived in Ottawa were to sign an MOU with
>> the
>> > Governor-General and the unelected Senate of the country to overthrow
>> > Parliament. They were funded by donations that came mostly from outside
>> the
>> > country, mostly by Americans.
>> >
>> > These facts are not in dispute.
>> >
>> > Now I strongly believe in the right to protest. I understand people who
>> > are frustrated by public health restrictions but the idea that a group
>> of
>> > people who broke hundreds of laws, who occupied the capital untouched
>> for
>> > THREE WEEKS and set up bouncy castles and hit tubs are somehow ?living
>> in a
>> > tyranny? is an insult to the vast numbers of humans who struggle against
>> > oppression, genocide, and repression all over the world INCLUDING those
>> who
>> > are arrested and brutalized defending their own Indigenous territories
>> here
>> > in Canada today.
>> >
>> > Open space is about passion bounded by responsibility. It acknowledges
>> > that you have the ability to create conversation and to take
>> responsibility
>> > for what you care about.
>> >
>> > And so I canno longer let these messages on this list pass by without
>> > taking the responsibility to point out that defense of these protestors
>> and
>> > especially the characterization of the racists and white supremacists in
>> > the group as a few bad apples is deeply offensive to the hundreds of
>> people
>> > of colour, Jews, Muslims, LGBTQ and indigenous people on this list. I
>> beg
>> > of you that you reflect on who you are taking to in this forum and pause
>> > for some self-reflection.
>> >
>> > There is simply no place in the world to ?yes but? when it comes to
>> these
>> > ideas. If you passionately feel that you should be allowed to hate, or
>> > support and defend the right to promote hate, then that is you certainly
>> > have a right. But I have a responsibility to point out the company you
>> are
>> > keeping and to denounce you.
>> >
>> > Mark, I firmly believe that you have not understood the essence of Open
>> > Space and your misunderstanding or willful ignorance of this situation
>> > leading conflation of what we are doing in the world as facilitators
>> with
>> > the hate being spouted in Ottawa is deeply offensive.
>> >
>> > I?m pointing this out to you and asking you to stop dragging Open Space
>> > into this. I find your opinions inaccurate, untrustworthy, and
>> intolerant.
>> > There are many ways we can discuss freedom without defending fascists.
>> But
>> > if you insist on defending fascists I will speak up against you and
>> defend
>> > the dignity and rights of humans to live free from hate. I am
>> anti-fascist
>> > and anti-racist and I won?t let these ideas stand unchallenged.
>> >
>> > Chris.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 10:05 AM Glenn Waters via OSList <
>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Enough of the nazi crap, please. I can't answer if you've misunderstood
>> >> something but let me share some facts about what is going on.
>> >>
>> >> In general this is a peaceful group of people. There are however a
>> number
>> >> of people attending that are not peaceful. They harass, assault
>> (physically
>> >> and verbally), and torment people who live in this area.
>> >>
>> >> A large portion of the downtown is closed because it has been taken
>> over.
>> >> This is having real affect on those businesses that are already
>> hanging on
>> >> by their fingernails to stay in business.
>> >>
>> >> For the residents living in this area the only two nearby grocery
>> stores
>> >> have closed because they fear for the safety of their staff. Many other
>> >> stores and restaurants are closed for safety reasons.
>> >>
>> >> Nazi flags have been flown, as have other symbols that are commonly
>> >> associated with hate and supremacy.
>> >>
>> >> Well documented leaders of white supremacists groups are attending.
>> This
>> >> does appear to be the minority, but I don't have data. Some have been
>> >> arrested in the last few days.
>> >>
>> >> Shifting to opinion.
>> >>
>> >> I don't think of what is happening a few kilometres from my home as a
>> >> protest anymore. It is an occupation that is taking away from the
>> freedoms
>> >> of those who choose to live and work in Ottawa.
>> >>
>> >> The occupiers assets are not being seized. They are being frozen. As
>> this
>> >> is an occupation I am perfectly fine that.
>> >>
>> >> The occupiers are incoherent. When asked about their demands it ranges
>> >> from "Freedom." to "We want to take over the government." There is
>> little
>> >> substantiation behind any of the remarks. Most engagements with the
>> >> occupiers does not result in any understanding of what they actually
>> want.
>> >> My understanding is that the original premise of the protests was
>> around
>> >> don't force us to be vaccinated, wear masks, or have to have/show a
>> vaccine
>> >> passport.
>> >>
>> >> I say go ahead and protest. That is your right and I believe in and
>> >> support those rights. Occupation is not on.
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Feb 18, 2022, at 11:56, Mark Carmel via OSList wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I have tried my best to bite my lip Regarding the dude's comment that
>> all
>> >> of the truckers must be white supremest nazi types ... What a
>> ridiculous
>> >> belief... that's being fed by the fake news that paints every Person
>> >> protesting for Freedom as a white supremest. Yeah, Total BS.... We are
>> >> open space technology facilitators we believe in freedom ... right? Or
>> have
>> >> I misunderstood something? And what did Canada decide to do? They
>> decided
>> >> to go and seize the bank accounts and the crypto wallets of the
>> >> protesters.. Now what sounds more like nazi tactics, protesting for
>> >> freedom or seizing people's bank accounts without a trial?
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> OSList mailing list
>> >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> >> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> OSList mailing list
>> >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> >> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > ---
>> > CHRIS CORRIGAN
>> > Blog and resources: http://www.chriscorrigan.com
>> > Harvest Moon Consultants: https://www.harvestmoonconsultants.com
>> >
>> > Located on Nex?wle?lex?wm (Bowen Island), Sk?wx?wu?7mesh territory,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > ---
>> > CHRIS CORRIGAN
>> > Blog and resources: http://www.chriscorrigan.com
>> > Harvest Moon Consultants: https://www.harvestmoonconsultants.com
>> >
>> > Located on Nex?wle?lex?wm (Bowen Island), Sk?wx?wu?7mesh territory,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220219/36f1c0b2/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 18:39:49 +0000
>> From: Romy Shovelton <romy.shovelton at gmail.com>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to
>> nazi comment
>> Message-ID: <E34AC413-CDD7-4F91-90B0-8161F5CA71DE at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> I find this whole thread of hate that has emanated from your words on
>> this OSLIST Mark, DEEPLY upsetting and so antithetical to all that the OS
>> community holds dear and practices in life. Can we please end this now. It
>> has no place here. Please express your thoughts elsewhere if you need to.
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>> Romy
>>
>> > On 19 Feb 2022, at 18:27, Chris Corrigan via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Mark:
>> >
>> > I have mostly been ignoring your posts around this but I have to speak
>> out now.
>> >
>> > The leaders of the protest in Ottawa who have now been arrested include
>> people who are open, brazen white supremacists, anti-Semites,
>> anti-indigenous. Their views are all over the Internet. There are multiple
>> far right and racist groups and leaders in this protest. There are flying
>> their own flags and wearing their colours. They are not hiding. They are
>> not just misunderstood people. They are openly promoting fascism, racism,
>> white supremacy, xenophobia and anti-Senitism. There is an unbelievable
>> amount of hate being spouted all over the place by these protestors. Most
>> of those who have followed them down this rabbit hole have failed to, or
>> just refused to, dissociate themselves from these people or their views.
>> There are very few people out there saying that these people don?t
>> represent them. Most who disagree with these views have long ago left the
>> protest site.
>> >
>> > Their objectives when they arrived in Ottawa were to sign an MOU with
>> the Governor-General and the unelected Senate of the country to overthrow
>> Parliament. They were funded by donations that came mostly from outside the
>> country, mostly by Americans.
>> >
>> > These facts are not in dispute.
>> >
>> > Now I strongly believe in the right to protest. I understand people who
>> are frustrated by public health restrictions but the idea that a group of
>> people who broke hundreds of laws, who occupied the capital untouched for
>> THREE WEEKS and set up bouncy castles and hit tubs are somehow ?living in a
>> tyranny? is an insult to the vast numbers of humans who struggle against
>> oppression, genocide, and repression all over the world INCLUDING those who
>> are arrested and brutalized defending their own Indigenous territories here
>> in Canada today.
>> >
>> > Open space is about passion bounded by responsibility. It acknowledges
>> that you have the ability to create conversation and to take responsibility
>> for what you care about.
>> >
>> > And so I canno longer let these messages on this list pass by without
>> taking the responsibility to point out that defense of these protestors and
>> especially the characterization of the racists and white supremacists in
>> the group as a few bad apples is deeply offensive to the hundreds of people
>> of colour, Jews, Muslims, LGBTQ and indigenous people on this list. I beg
>> of you that you reflect on who you are taking to in this forum and pause
>> for some self-reflection.
>> >
>> > There is simply no place in the world to ?yes but? when it comes to
>> these ideas. If you passionately feel that you should be allowed to hate,
>> or support and defend the right to promote hate, then that is you certainly
>> have a right. But I have a responsibility to point out the company you are
>> keeping and to denounce you.
>> >
>> > Mark, I firmly believe that you have not understood the essence of Open
>> Space and your misunderstanding or willful ignorance of this situation
>> leading conflation of what we are doing in the world as facilitators with
>> the hate being spouted in Ottawa is deeply offensive.
>> >
>> > I?m pointing this out to you and asking you to stop dragging Open Space
>> into this. I find your opinions inaccurate, untrustworthy, and intolerant.
>> There are many ways we can discuss freedom without defending fascists. But
>> if you insist on defending fascists I will speak up against you and defend
>> the dignity and rights of humans to live free from hate. I am anti-fascist
>> and anti-racist and I won?t let these ideas stand unchallenged.
>> >
>> > Chris.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 10:05 AM Glenn Waters via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
>> wrote:
>> > Enough of the nazi crap, please. I can't answer if you've misunderstood
>> something but let me share some facts about what is going on.
>> >
>> > In general this is a peaceful group of people. There are however a
>> number of people attending that are not peaceful. They harass, assault
>> (physically and verbally), and torment people who live in this area.
>> >
>> > A large portion of the downtown is closed because it has been taken
>> over. This is having real affect on those businesses that are already
>> hanging on by their fingernails to stay in business.
>> >
>> > For the residents living in this area the only two nearby grocery
>> stores have closed because they fear for the safety of their staff. Many
>> other stores and restaurants are closed for safety reasons.
>> >
>> > Nazi flags have been flown, as have other symbols that are commonly
>> associated with hate and supremacy.
>> >
>> > Well documented leaders of white supremacists groups are attending.
>> This does appear to be the minority, but I don't have data. Some have been
>> arrested in the last few days.
>> >
>> > Shifting to opinion.
>> >
>> > I don't think of what is happening a few kilometres from my home as a
>> protest anymore. It is an occupation that is taking away from the freedoms
>> of those who choose to live and work in Ottawa.
>> >
>> > The occupiers assets are not being seized. They are being frozen. As
>> this is an occupation I am perfectly fine that.
>> >
>> > The occupiers are incoherent. When asked about their demands it ranges
>> from "Freedom." to "We want to take over the government." There is little
>> substantiation behind any of the remarks. Most engagements with the
>> occupiers does not result in any understanding of what they actually want.
>> My understanding is that the original premise of the protests was around
>> don't force us to be vaccinated, wear masks, or have to have/show a vaccine
>> passport.
>> >
>> > I say go ahead and protest. That is your right and I believe in and
>> support those rights. Occupation is not on.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2022, at 11:56, Mark Carmel via OSList wrote:
>> >> I have tried my best to bite my lip Regarding the dude's comment that
>> all of the truckers must be white supremest nazi types ... What a
>> ridiculous belief... that's being fed by the fake news that paints every
>> Person protesting for Freedom as a white supremest. Yeah, Total BS.... We
>> are open space technology facilitators we believe in freedom ... right? Or
>> have I misunderstood something? And what did Canada decide to do? They
>> decided to go and seize the bank accounts and the crypto wallets of the
>> protesters.. Now what sounds more like nazi tactics, protesting for
>> freedom or seizing people's bank accounts without a trial?
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>> > --
>> > ---
>> > CHRIS CORRIGAN
>> > Blog and resources: http://www.chriscorrigan.com <
>> http://www.chriscorrigan.com/>
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>> https://www.harvestmoonconsultants.com/>
>> >
>> > Located on Nex?wle?lex?wm (Bowen Island), Sk?wx?wu?7mesh territory,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > ---
>> > CHRIS CORRIGAN
>> > Blog and resources: http://www.chriscorrigan.com <
>> http://www.chriscorrigan.com/>
>> > Harvest Moon Consultants: https://www.harvestmoonconsultants.com <
>> https://www.harvestmoonconsultants.com/>
>> >
>> > Located on Nex?wle?lex?wm (Bowen Island), Sk?wx?wu?7mesh territory,
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> Romy Shovelton
>> Executive Director
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 11:20:05 -0800
>> From: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to
>> nazi comment
>> Message-ID: <0D017F55-D74A-4837-9BEB-671CAD08BF45 at mac.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Thank-you, Chris, for your passion, your eloquence, and your facts.
>>
>> John W
>>
>> Sent from John's iPhone
>>
>> > On Feb 19, 2022, at 10:27 AM, Chris Corrigan via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > ?
>> >
>> > Mark:
>> >
>> > I have mostly been ignoring your posts around this but I have to speak
>> out now.
>> >
>> > The leaders of the protest in Ottawa who have now been arrested include
>> people who are open, brazen white supremacists, anti-Semites,
>> anti-indigenous. Their views are all over the Internet. There are multiple
>> far right and racist groups and leaders in this protest. There are flying
>> their own flags and wearing their colours. They are not hiding. They are
>> not just misunderstood people. They are openly promoting fascism, racism,
>> white supremacy, xenophobia and anti-Senitism. There is an unbelievable
>> amount of hate being spouted all over the place by these protestors. Most
>> of those who have followed them down this rabbit hole have failed to, or
>> just refused to, dissociate themselves from these people or their views.
>> There are very few people out there saying that these people don?t
>> represent them. Most who disagree with these views have long ago left the
>> protest site.
>> >
>> > Their objectives when they arrived in Ottawa were to sign an MOU with
>> the Governor-General and the unelected Senate of the country to overthrow
>> Parliament. They were funded by donations that came mostly from outside the
>> country, mostly by Americans.
>> >
>> > These facts are not in dispute.
>> >
>> > Now I strongly believe in the right to protest. I understand people who
>> are frustrated by public health restrictions but the idea that a group of
>> people who broke hundreds of laws, who occupied the capital untouched for
>> THREE WEEKS and set up bouncy castles and hit tubs are somehow ?living in a
>> tyranny? is an insult to the vast numbers of humans who struggle against
>> oppression, genocide, and repression all over the world INCLUDING those who
>> are arrested and brutalized defending their own Indigenous territories here
>> in Canada today.
>> >
>> > Open space is about passion bounded by responsibility. It acknowledges
>> that you have the ability to create conversation and to take responsibility
>> for what you care about.
>> >
>> > And so I canno longer let these messages on this list pass by without
>> taking the responsibility to point out that defense of these protestors and
>> especially the characterization of the racists and white supremacists in
>> the group as a few bad apples is deeply offensive to the hundreds of people
>> of colour, Jews, Muslims, LGBTQ and indigenous people on this list. I beg
>> of you that you reflect on who you are taking to in this forum and pause
>> for some self-reflection.
>> >
>> > There is simply no place in the world to ?yes but? when it comes to
>> these ideas. If you passionately feel that you should be allowed to hate,
>> or support and defend the right to promote hate, then that is you certainly
>> have a right. But I have a responsibility to point out the company you are
>> keeping and to denounce you.
>> >
>> > Mark, I firmly believe that you have not understood the essence of Open
>> Space and your misunderstanding or willful ignorance of this situation
>> leading conflation of what we are doing in the world as facilitators with
>> the hate being spouted in Ottawa is deeply offensive.
>> >
>> > I?m pointing this out to you and asking you to stop dragging Open Space
>> into this. I find your opinions inaccurate, untrustworthy, and intolerant.
>> There are many ways we can discuss freedom without defending fascists. But
>> if you insist on defending fascists I will speak up against you and defend
>> the dignity and rights of humans to live free from hate. I am anti-fascist
>> and anti-racist and I won?t let these ideas stand unchallenged.
>> >
>> > Chris.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 10:05 AM Glenn Waters via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >> Enough of the nazi crap, please. I can't answer if you've
>> misunderstood something but let me share some facts about what is going on.
>> >>
>> >> In general this is a peaceful group of people. There are however a
>> number of people attending that are not peaceful. They harass, assault
>> (physically and verbally), and torment people who live in this area.
>> >>
>> >> A large portion of the downtown is closed because it has been taken
>> over. This is having real affect on those businesses that are already
>> hanging on by their fingernails to stay in business.
>> >>
>> >> For the residents living in this area the only two nearby grocery
>> stores have closed because they fear for the safety of their staff. Many
>> other stores and restaurants are closed for safety reasons.
>> >>
>> >> Nazi flags have been flown, as have other symbols that are commonly
>> associated with hate and supremacy.
>> >>
>> >> Well documented leaders of white supremacists groups are attending.
>> This does appear to be the minority, but I don't have data. Some have been
>> arrested in the last few days.
>> >>
>> >> Shifting to opinion.
>> >>
>> >> I don't think of what is happening a few kilometres from my home as a
>> protest anymore. It is an occupation that is taking away from the freedoms
>> of those who choose to
>
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