[OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
Daniel Mezick via OSList
oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
Wed Oct 7 12:25:56 PDT 2015
Yo Michael,
The whole "story-context-is-missing" thing is really just a sidebar to
the important (and much wider) issues around authority.
These authority-issues are raised by the subject essay, "The Tyranny of
Structurelessness." What a great essay!
Story-context is a really, really important topic though, especially if
"missing-context" does have at least the potential to evoke feelings of
exclusion, in at least some members of the list.
Regarding some of the things you are saying:
You say, "Exclusion is the illusion. A little bit of errant and
temporary mental structure."
I say, my current belief is that my feelings are not illusion
whatsoever, nor are they error. Rather they are real and valid, human
emotions. They are emotions which, when experienced fully, are in fact
an essential aspect of living well.
You say, "...I notice the word tyranny again in the subject. Is it not
some kind of tyranny we all attempt over and over again when we expect
and insist that the world explain itself to/for us?"
I say, my current belief is that inquiry is not simply important, it is
in fact essential. Inquiry is good.
In any event, and as always, I do appreciate your feedback.
I am now keen to get back to the main topic !
I wonder how we might, in the here and now, go about defining the term
"structure," for purposes of further discussing issues raised by this
essay with much more clarity.
That's a question I'm keen to explore with you, and the other members of
this list, inside this thread.
Regards,
Daniel
http://www.Prime-OS.com
On 10/6/15 11:56 AM, Michael Herman wrote:
> Yes and Daniel, there are the words of a story and the feeling/meaning
> of it. I considered writing a longer message in the telling of this
> story, but I wanted to transmit as much of the spirit/experience of it
> as I could.
>
> Ralph didn't offer any explanation of his observation that morning. He
> did just like I said, got up in a morning news circle, it was an
> OTgathering as I noted but that doesn't matter, it was open space and
> morning news. He said his piece and sat down. The experience for me,
> and others I have learned only later, was stunning and disorienting,
> for sure.
>
> I thought to honor and convey this experience through some measure of
> similar brevity in my retelling. Maybe this is what you picked up on.
> The disorienting magic of Ralph's moment.
>
> There are moments in open space of surprise and disconnect, maybe
> frustration or confusion or misunderstanding or disorientation and
> even disappointment that arise in open space. This we all know and
> have experienced. This, to me, is not so much a thing to be solved but
> the nature of the territory. It just is.
>
> Ralph never did explain his statement, as far as I know. He had
> something to say and he said it. That was his only job. After that,
> each of us had to figure out for ourselves what, if anything, to do
> with his story, to decide if it was wisdom or wisecrack. The
> storyteller, I think, has only the responsibility for finding and
> sharing what's true for him/her. The rest is up to us.
>
> Maybe this points to the learning and challenge that we all have in
> open space, namely learning to trust more and more that we already are
> always included in a flow that is bigger and deeper or whatever than
> we can see or understand or articulate sometimes. Exclusion is the
> illusion. A little bit of errant and temporary mental structure.
> Discomfort is not a problem (and can't be solved by anyone!); it's a
> trail marker. Which is to say about exclusion and missing out,
> "welcome!" The good news is, and the bad news is, you're in! And,
> it's all still happening Now.
>
> As I scroll up to send tha now, I notice the word tyranny again in the
> subject. Is it not some kind of tyranny we all attempt over and over
> again when we expect and insist that the world explain itself to/for
> us? Is this not something of our central challenge, something all of
> us work with? The edge of open space is an end of comfortable,
> conventional understanding? Or something?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 6, 2015, Daniel Mezick via OSList
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
> <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
>
> Hi Harrison,
>
> Thanks for the tips on how to search OSLIST and Google, etc. I did
> do those things actually. However, that's a bit of an effort,
> especially searching the OSLIST archives. I guess I could
> eventually pick up OSLIST culture that way, little by little. I
> suppose an earnest person with loads of time could sift through
> OSLIST archives to figure this culture out. The hard way.
>
> However, like the SPIRIT book teaches, there is nothing like a
> good story to convey culture. The kind of story with a beginning,
> a middle and an end.
>
> I notice that, when you are the one referring to a certain
> OS-mythos story, you usually tend to include the short list of
> pertinent details, the essential details that provide the
> essential context, so the reader can follow along, and engage.
>
> And I'm always grateful for that, as it helps me to follow along,
> and get what you are referring to, and more fully understand the
> story, and feel oddly included in the story.
>
>
> Earlier, I express how not having the context tends to (for me)
> arouse feelings of: exclusion, cluelessness, and a general lack of
> membership in whatever "historic-OS-mythos-episode" is being
> referred to. Sort of an "out group" feeling. You know? Sometimes,
> I wonder what the poster might be thinking by posting random
> fragments of a "you had to be there" kind of story. Other times, I
> wonder if other readers are also feeling these feelings. Or if it
> is "just me."
>
> And so: I am very grateful for your stories, in part because you
> include the pertinent details, and in so doing, make me (for one)
> feel included.
>
> So thanks for including the context in your stories. It makes them
> fun, and easy to follow. OSLIST culture certainly has it's quirks,
> and for me, your stories make this culture easier to figure out,
> and navigate, and enjoy.
>
>
> Getting back to the Tyranny of Structurelessness:
>
> Do you think these 3 assertions by the author are actually true?
> Do these ideas have legs?
>
> * /This hegemony can be so easily established because the idea
> of "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of
> informal structures, only formal ones./
> * /For everyone to have the opportunity to be involved in a
> given group and to participate in its activities, the
> structure must be explicit, not implicit. /
> * /It is this informal structure, particularly in Unstructured
> groups, which forms the basis for elites./
>
>
> Daniel
>
> On 10/6/15 10:04 AM, Harrison Owen wrote:
>>
>> Dan, Google can often help. https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman
>>
>> ho
>>
>> *From:*OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org');>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Daniel Mezick via OSList
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 05, 2015 4:51 PM
>> *To:* Harrison Owen; World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
>>
>> Howdy Harrison,
>>
>> Thanks for describing the context of the Ralph Copleman story-
>> I'm very thankful for that info.
>>
>> I notice that, lots of times here, there are references made to
>> notable OST episodes, and situations from times past...
>>
>> ...the "OST-mythos" as it were.
>>
>> These mythical stories often have me wondering what I missed, and
>> what I might now be missing. (Being clueless as I am.)
>>
>> I'm sure these story-fragment postings are not posted with intent
>> to exclude anyone, or to be discourteous, or unkind. More like:
>> some good old basic camaraderie is taking place between some old
>> friends.
>>
>> Still: Do these "inside-story-fragments" on OSLIST tend to evoke
>> feelings of exclusion in readers who were /not/ there at the time?
>>
>> Not sure.
>>
>> <CONFESSION>
>>
>> As for me, personally, I sometimes find myself experiencing
>> curiously odd feelings of exclusion, when a told-fragment of an
>> old OST-mythos story lacks explicit context. So I can follow the
>> story, you know? The terms "outsider" or "clueless" or "not in
>> the story" describe these feelings fairly well. "Not invited?"
>>
>> I sometimes wonder if some of the hundreds of /other/ members of
>> OSLIST ever feel this way...or if it is "just me."
>>
>> </CONFESSION>
>>
>> Daniel
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/4/15 2:59 PM, Harrison Owen via OSList wrote:
>>
>> “Everythingis moving.† .... Michael -- I remember that
>> moment verywell. And Dan, I’m not sure the context, etc,
>> would helpvery much. But just for the record the odd phrase
>> popped out at one of the International Symposia on
>> Organization Transformation which happened to be taking place
>> at a small college south of Seattle. I have no idea why Ralph
>> said what he did, and I’m not sure Ralph did either. But
>> then againa lot of marvelous stuff seems to burst out with no
>> obvious logic train. Indeed it may be that the lack of logic
>> train enables the thought?
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Whatever the genesis, the phrase wandered about my head for
>> some time, quite unattached, and it also happened that I was
>> working my way slowly through one of the masterpieces of
>> 20^th century western philosophy when a fuzzy connection
>> began to form. The work was that of Alfred North Whitehead,
>> and the title: “Process and Reality.†I’ve been through
>> thebook probably 4-5 times, and I am frank to confess that I
>> don’t think I really understandit. But then again
>> I’veheard a number of people with much greater
>> credentials, tenure, etc – say the same thing. But I did
>> get that ithad something to do with, “Everything is
>> moving.†Andthe more I thought and read, the more I felt
>> that the good philosopher had made a small mistake on his
>> title. It shouldn’t be “Process/and/ Reality,†but
>> rather“Process*is* Reality.â€
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Now, Anna Caroline we come to “structure,†or perhaps
>> Ishould say the fallacy of Structure? Yes I know – we’ve
>> all been taught that structure is the precursor, the
>> “determinator†of everything. My face looks as it
>> doesbecause of my bone structure. My life proceeds the way it
>> does because of my social structure. My business works as it
>> does because of the organizational structure. And of course,
>> meetings happen the way they do because of meeting structure,
>> which apparently is the prime domain of “facilitators.â€
>> And even if we hadn’t been“taught†all this, the primacy
>> of structure would appearto be blatantly obvious – as plain
>> as the nose on yourface.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Unfortunately, it does seem to turn out that sometimes the
>> blatantly obvious is not necessarily so. For example just
>> looking at things it is pretty clear that the world is flat,
>> or at the least bumpy flat. And any fool can see that we are
>> the center of it all – Sun, moon, and stars whiz around
>> us. But when we think about it, as we have been doing for
>> the last 500-600 years, the obvious isn’t so obvious.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> It is reasonable to ask what would start to make us think
>> differently – to the point that we begin to question
>> theobvious, and even come to see things in a different way?
>> Taking a leap, I will suggest that it all begins with the
>> perception of anomaly. Things just don’t make sense. Our
>> eyes tell us one thing... but???? And then we start making up
>> stories to explain the apparently unexplainable. We imagine
>> different ways of looking at things so that the nonsensical
>> makes sense. Some of those stories get pretty strange, but if
>> they actually work – that is to say, helpus to see in new
>> and useful ways – that’s great!
>>
>> Â
>>
>> There is, of course, a proper term for the activity I have
>> been describing. It is called Theory Building. And for
>> whatever it is worth, “theory†comes from the Greek
>> “/theoreinâ//€ /– to see. In a word, theories are ways of
>> looking atthings – likely stories you might say.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Now, at long last (too long?) we come to the odd story I was
>> starting to tell, to the effect that Structure is only a
>> figment of our imagination, a flash frame of a moment gone
>> by. Interesting, and helpful under some circumstances... but
>> always partial and in a sense illusory. What’s“reallyâ€
>> happening is all flow. Everything is moving –That’s
>> Ralph’s story, and I guess it is mine too.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> So how did I get to such a weird condition? It was all about
>> anomaly – more particularly, the anomaly of Open
>> Space.Everything that I had ever learned told me that it
>> could not work. Unfortunately it did (work) – and not just
>> once, butevery time, hundreds of thousands of times.
>> Something was definitely weird. It seemed to me that I had to
>> re-consider all those things I thought I had learned,
>> beginning with the basics... such things as Structure.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Common sense would say that Open Space works because we
>> somehow created a structure that enabled it to work. That’s
>> theway things get done, or so I had been taught. But
>> that’snot the way things happened in Open Space. Structure
>> emerged along the way and only momentarily. Worse yet it
>> (structure) seemed to have little to do with the obvious
>> power, connections, creativity.... all of which created
>> structures, and passed them by. And actually it always seemed
>> to me that the “structures†I “saw†existed only
>> because Iwanted to see them – or perhaps that I “shouldâ€
>> seethem. But they were only momentary wisps, figments –
>> neverto be mistaken for what was really going on. Or so
>> I’vebeen thinking.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Harrison
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Â
>>
>> *From:*OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org');>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Michael Herman via OSList
>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 03, 2015 6:31 PM
>> *To:* JL Walker; World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
>>
>> Â
>>
>> you remind me, harrison, of one morning news session years
>> ago, somewhere, probably OT... where ralph copleman walked to
>> the center of the circle and announced, all serious and
>> mischievous at the same time, "it's all moving!" Â
>>
>> Â
>>
>> then put the stick down and went back to his seat.Â
>>
>>
>> Â
>> --
>>
>> Michael Herman
>> Michael Herman Associates
>> http://MichaelHerman.com
>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>
>> Â
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 1:47 PM, JL Walker via OSList
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','oslist at lists.openspacetech.org');>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I was thinking that maybe the antidote to the eventual
>> tyranny of structurelessness is to open space, again and
>> again, until true democracy can emerge.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Juan Luis
>>
>> Â
>>
>> *De:*OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org');>]
>> *En nombre de *Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList
>> *Enviado el:* sábado, 03 de octubre de 2015 12:19
>> *Para:* Daniel Mezick; World wide Open Space Technology email
>> list
>> *Asunto:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Hi Daniel,
>>
>> Yes, this is a key piece... I see it as very similar in some
>> ways to what Ken Wilber wrote later,
>>
>> about the "shadow side of the green meme". (Each meme has its
>> own shadow, as well as its own gift...)
>>
>> So, I love "green". I love circles, I love non-hierarchy, etc.
>> And, part of the "shadow side of the green meme" is how
>> ideologically anti-structure it can become...
>>
>> to the point where some people may not even agree that OST
>> does, in fact, offer a very simple and effective structure.
>>
>> By way contrast, think of a situation where group of people
>> (who don't know about OST, and/or, who are having a power
>> struggle around "which process to use", and/or.... ) might
>> easily spending a whole weekend arguing /about /"how to
>> self-organize ourselves"... with a great deal more pain and
>> frustration and a great deal less value.
>>
>> whereas, instead, IF someone knows about OST, and, a clear
>> invitation has been extended, and, there is enough
>> trust/suspension of disbelief so that participants are
>> willing to enter into that format,
>>
>> then, we end up with a very simple and elegant structure that
>> allows people to self-organize beautifully....
>>
>> at least that's how i see it! :-)
>>
>> with all best wishes,
>>
>> Rosa
>>
>> Â
>>
>>
>> */Rosa Zubizarreta/*
>>
>> /Developing Participatory and Co-intelligent Leadership
>> Author of *From Conflict to Creative Collaboration*
>> <http://www.conflict2creativity.com>/
>>
>> /For more resources and learning opportunities, visit
>> *www.DiaPraxis.com <http://www.DiaPraxis.com>*/
>>
>> Â
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Daniel Mezick via OSList
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','oslist at lists.openspacetech.org');>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS
>> by Jo Freeman aka Joreen
>>
>> I find this essay extremely interesting. I hope you do, too.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is a pertinent quote, from the essay:
>> ".../the idea of "structurelessness" does not prevent the
>> formation of informal structures, only formal ones."
>>
>> /
>> Circa 1970. Context: the women's movement. Quick summary of
>> the main points: from the essay...
>>
>> ï‚·/During the years in which the women's liberation movement
>> has been taking shape, a great emphasis has been placed on
>> what are called leaderless, structureless groups as the main
>> -- if not sole -- organizational form of the movement. /
>>
>> ï‚·/The idea of "structurelessness," however, has moved from
>> a healthy counter to those tendencies, to becoming a goddess
>> in its own right./
>>
>> ï‚·/Contrary to what we would like to believe, there is no
>> such thing as a structureless group. /
>>
>> ï‚·/This means that to strive for a structureless group is as
>> useful, and as deceptive, as to aim at an "objective" news
>> story, "value-free" social science, or a "free" economy. A
>> "laissez faire" group is about as realistic as a "laissez
>> faire" society; the idea becomes a smokescreen for the strong
>> or the lucky to establish unquestioned hegemony over others. /
>>
>> ï‚·/This hegemony can be so easily established because the
>> idea of "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of
>> informal structures, only formal ones. /
>>
>> ï‚·/For everyone to have the opportunity to be involved in a
>> given group and to participate in its activities, the
>> structure must be explicit, not implicit. /
>>
>> ï‚·/It is this informal structure, particularly in
>> Unstructured groups, which forms the basis for elites./
>>
>>
>>
>> Just in case you have not yet encountered the full text of
>> this essay, here it is:
>>
>> THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS
>> by Jo Freeman aka Joreen
>> http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Daniel
>> http://www.OpenSpaceAgility.com/about
>> http://www.DanielMezick.com
>> 203 915 7248 <tel:203%20915%207248>
>>
>>
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>> --
>>
>> Daniel Mezick, President
>>
>> New Technology Solutions Inc.
>>
>> (203) 915 7248 (cell)
>>
>> Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
>> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter
>> <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.Â
>>
>> Examine my new book:Â The Culture Game
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>> the Agile Manager.
>>
>> Explore Agile Team Training
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> --
>
> Daniel Mezick, President
>
> New Technology Solutions Inc.
>
> (203) 915 7248 (cell)
>
> Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter
> <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.
>
> Examine my new book:The Culture Game
> <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for
> the Agile Manager.
>
> Explore Agile Team Training
> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and
> Coaching. <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
>
> Explore the Agile Boston
> <http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>Community.
>
>
>
> --
>
> --
>
> Michael Herman
> Michael Herman Associates
> http://MichaelHerman.com
> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>
>
--
Daniel Mezick, President
New Technology Solutions Inc.
(203) 915 7248 (cell)
Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
<http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.
Examine my new book:The Culture Game
<http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the
Agile Manager.
Explore Agile Team Training
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching.
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
Explore the Agile Boston <http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>Community.
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