[OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness

[Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList]

structure/flow

leading/following

power/surrender

hero/host

...

...

...

Rosa



On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Monica Nissen via OSList <
oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

> Like the banks of a river setting the perimeter or creating the container
> where the river can flow freely ;-)
>
> Monica
>
> Den 6. okt. 2015 kl. 20.07 skrev Chris Corrigan via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>:
>
> My exploration of the Tao te Ching over the years has left me with the
> realization that structure and flow are co-arising: they come into being
> together and exist and mutually influence each other.  How I live my life,
> shapes my body, and my body’s shape determines how I live my life, and both
> those things change together forever until I die and one or other of these
> things disappears.
>
> The idea that one exists separate from the other is a kind of delusion.
> And ignoring the reality that both structure and flow arise together means
> that you end up imposing structure when you don’t think your are, or
> imposing flow when you don’t think you are, from a kind of blind spot.
> That can be quite dangerous to living systems.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 6, 2015, at 11:00 AM, paul levy via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> Is this list a tyranny of structurelessness?
>
> On 6 October 2015 at 16:56, Michael Herman via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
>> Yes and Daniel, there are the words of a story and the feeling/meaning of
>> it. I considered writing a longer message in the telling of this story, but
>> I wanted to transmit as much of the spirit/experience of it as I could.
>>
>> Ralph didn't offer any explanation of his observation that morning. He
>> did just like I said, got up in a morning news circle, it was an
>> OTgathering as I noted but that doesn't matter, it was open space and
>> morning news. He said his piece and sat down. The experience for me, and
>> others I have learned only later, was stunning and disorienting, for sure.
>>
>> I thought to honor and convey this experience through some measure of
>> similar brevity in my retelling. Maybe this is what you picked up on. The
>> disorienting magic of Ralph's moment.
>>
>> There are moments in open space of surprise and disconnect, maybe
>> frustration or confusion or misunderstanding or disorientation and even
>> disappointment that arise in open space. This we all know and have
>> experienced. This, to me, is not so much a thing to be solved but the
>> nature of the territory. It just is.
>>
>> Ralph never did explain his statement, as far as I know. He had something
>> to say and he said it. That was his only job. After that, each of us had to
>> figure out for ourselves what, if anything, to do with his story, to decide
>> if it was wisdom or wisecrack. The storyteller, I think, has only the
>> responsibility for finding and sharing what's true for him/her.  The rest
>> is up to us.
>>
>> Maybe this points to the learning and challenge that we all have in open
>> space, namely learning to trust more and more that we already are always
>> included in a flow that is bigger and deeper or whatever than we can see or
>> understand or articulate sometimes. Exclusion is the illusion. A little bit
>> of errant and temporary mental structure. Discomfort is not a problem (and
>> can't be solved by anyone!); it's a trail marker.  Which is to say about
>> exclusion and missing out, "welcome!"  The good news is, and the bad news
>> is, you're in!  And, it's all still happening Now.
>>
>> As I scroll up to send tha now, I notice the word tyranny again in the
>> subject. Is it not some kind of tyranny we all attempt over and over again
>> when we expect and insist that the world explain itself to/for us?  Is this
>> not something of our central challenge, something all of us work with?  The
>> edge of open space is an end of comfortable, conventional understanding?
>> Or something?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, October 6, 2015, Daniel Mezick via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Harrison,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the tips on how to search OSLIST and Google, etc. I did do
>>> those things actually. However, that's a bit of an effort, especially
>>> searching the OSLIST archives. I guess I could eventually pick up OSLIST
>>> culture that way, little by little. I suppose an earnest person with loads
>>> of time could sift through OSLIST archives to figure this culture out. The
>>> hard way.
>>>
>>> However, like the SPIRIT book teaches, there is nothing like a good
>>> story to convey culture. The kind of story with a beginning, a middle and
>>> an end.
>>>
>>> I notice that, when you are the one referring to a certain OS-mythos
>>> story, you usually tend to include the short list of pertinent details, the
>>> essential details that provide the essential context, so the reader can
>>> follow along, and engage.
>>>
>>> And I'm always grateful for that, as it helps me to follow along, and
>>> get what you are referring to, and more fully understand the story, and
>>> feel oddly included in the story.
>>>
>>>
>>> Earlier, I express how not having the context tends to (for me) arouse
>>> feelings of: exclusion, cluelessness, and a general lack of membership in
>>> whatever "historic-OS-mythos-episode" is being referred to. Sort of an "out
>>> group" feeling. You know? Sometimes, I wonder what the poster might be
>>> thinking by posting random fragments of a "you had to be there" kind of
>>> story. Other times, I wonder if other readers are also feeling these
>>> feelings. Or if it is "just me."
>>>
>>> And so: I am very grateful for your stories, in part because you include
>>> the pertinent details, and in so doing, make me (for one) feel included.
>>>
>>> So thanks for including the context in your stories. It makes them fun,
>>> and easy to follow. OSLIST culture certainly has it's quirks, and for me,
>>> your stories make this culture easier to figure out, and navigate, and
>>> enjoy.
>>>
>>>
>>> Getting back to the Tyranny of Structurelessness:
>>>
>>> Do you think these 3 assertions by the author are actually true? Do
>>> these ideas have legs?
>>>
>>>    - *This hegemony can be so easily established because the idea of
>>>    "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of informal structures,
>>>    only formal ones.*
>>>    - *For everyone to have the opportunity to be involved in a given
>>>    group and to participate in its activities, the structure must be explicit,
>>>    not implicit. *
>>>    - *It is this informal structure, particularly in Unstructured
>>>    groups, which forms the basis for elites.*
>>>
>>>
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>> On 10/6/15 10:04 AM, Harrison Owen wrote:
>>>
>>> Dan, Google can often help. https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ho
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Daniel Mezick via OSList
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 05, 2015 4:51 PM
>>> *To:* Harrison Owen; World wide Open Space Technology email list
>>> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Howdy Harrison,
>>>
>>> Thanks for describing the context of the Ralph Copleman story- I'm very
>>> thankful for that info.
>>>
>>> I notice that, lots of times here, there are references made to notable
>>> OST episodes, and situations from times past...
>>>
>>> ...the "OST-mythos" as it were.
>>>
>>> These mythical stories often have me wondering what I missed, and what I
>>> might now be missing. (Being clueless as I am.)
>>>
>>> I'm sure these story-fragment postings are not posted with intent to
>>> exclude anyone, or to be discourteous, or unkind. More like: some good old
>>> basic camaraderie is taking place between some old friends.
>>>
>>> Still: Do these "inside-story-fragments" on OSLIST tend to evoke
>>> feelings of exclusion in readers who were *not* there at the time?
>>>
>>> Not sure.
>>>
>>> <CONFESSION>
>>>
>>> As for me, personally, I sometimes find myself experiencing curiously
>>> odd feelings of exclusion, when a told-fragment of an old OST-mythos story
>>> lacks explicit context. So I can follow the story, you know? The terms
>>> "outsider" or "clueless" or  "not in the story" describe these feelings
>>> fairly well. "Not invited?"
>>>
>>> I sometimes wonder if some of the hundreds of *other* members of OSLIST
>>> ever feel this way...or if it is "just me."
>>>
>>> </CONFESSION>
>>>
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/4/15 2:59 PM, Harrison Owen via OSList wrote:
>>>
>>> “Everything is moving.†  .... Michael -- I remember that moment
>>> very well. And Dan, I’m not sure the context, etc, would help very
>>> much. But just for the record the odd phrase popped out at one of the
>>> International Symposia on Organization Transformation which happened to be
>>> taking place at a small college south of Seattle. I have no idea why Ralph
>>> said what he did, and I’m not sure Ralph did either. But then again a
>>> lot of marvelous stuff seems to burst out with no obvious logic train.
>>> Indeed it may be that the lack of logic train enables the thought?
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> Whatever the genesis, the phrase wandered about my head for some time,
>>> quite unattached, and it also happened that I was working my way slowly
>>> through one of the masterpieces of 20th century western philosophy when
>>> a fuzzy connection began to form. The work was that of Alfred North
>>> Whitehead, and the title: “Process and Reality.†I’ve been through
>>> the book probably 4-5 times, and I am frank to confess that I don’t
>>> think I really understand it. But then again I’ve heard  a number of
>>> people with much greater credentials, tenure, etc – say the same
>>> thing. But I did get that it had something to do with, “Everything is
>>> moving.†And the more I thought and read, the more I felt that the
>>> good philosopher had made a small mistake on his title. It shouldn’t
>>> be “Process *and* Reality,†but rather “Process *is* Reality.â€
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> Now, Anna Caroline we come to “structure,†or perhaps I should say
>>> the fallacy of Structure? Yes I know – we’ve all been taught that
>>> structure is the precursor, the “determinator†of everything. My
>>> face looks as it does because of my bone structure. My life proceeds
>>> the way it does because of my social structure. My business works as it
>>> does because of the organizational structure. And of course, meetings
>>> happen the way they do because of meeting structure, which apparently is
>>> the prime domain of “facilitators.†And even if we hadn’t been “taughtâ€
>>> all this, the primacy of structure would appear to be blatantly obvious
>>> – as plain as the nose on your face.
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, it does seem to turn out that sometimes the blatantly
>>> obvious is not necessarily so. For example just looking at things it is
>>> pretty clear that the world is flat, or at the least bumpy flat. And any
>>> fool can see that we are the center of it all – Sun, moon, and stars
>>> whiz around us.  But when we think about it, as we have been doing for
>>> the last 500-600 years, the obvious isn’t so obvious.
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> It is reasonable to ask what would start to make us think differently –
>>> to the point that we begin to question the obvious, and even come to
>>> see things in a different way? Taking a leap, I will suggest that it all
>>> begins with the perception of anomaly. Things just don’t make sense. Our
>>> eyes tell us one thing... but???? And then we start making up stories to
>>> explain the apparently unexplainable. We imagine different ways of looking
>>> at things so that the nonsensical makes sense. Some of those stories get
>>> pretty strange, but if they actually work – that is to say, help us
>>> to see in new and useful ways – that’s great!
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> There is, of course, a proper term for the activity I have been
>>> describing. It is called Theory Building. And for whatever it is worth, “theoryâ€
>>> comes from the Greek “*theoreinâ**€ * – to see. In a word, theories
>>> are ways of looking at things – likely stories you might say.
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> Now, at long last (too long?) we come to the odd story I was starting to
>>> tell, to the effect that Structure is only a figment of our imagination, a
>>> flash frame of a moment gone by. Interesting, and helpful under some
>>> circumstances... but always partial and in a sense illusory. What’s “reallyâ€
>>> happening is all flow. Everything is moving – That’s Ralph’s
>>> story, and I guess it is mine too.
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> So how did I get to such a weird condition? It was all about anomaly –
>>> more particularly, the anomaly of Open Space. Everything that I had
>>> ever learned told me that it could not work. Unfortunately it did (work) –
>>> and not just once, but every time, hundreds of thousands of times.
>>> Something was definitely weird. It seemed to me that I had to re-consider
>>> all those things I thought I had learned, beginning with the basics... such
>>> things as Structure.
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> Common sense would say that Open Space works because we somehow created
>>> a structure that enabled it to work. That’s the way things get done,
>>> or so I had been taught. But that’s not the way things happened in
>>> Open Space. Structure emerged along the way and only momentarily. Worse yet
>>> it (structure) seemed to have little to do with the obvious power,
>>> connections, creativity.... all of which created structures, and passed
>>> them by. And actually it always seemed to me that the “structures†I
>>> “saw†existed only because I wanted to see them – or perhaps that
>>> I “should†see them. But they were only momentary wisps, figments –
>>> never to be mistaken for what was really going on. Or so I’ve been
>>> thinking.
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> Harrison
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> *From:* OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Michael Herman via OSList
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 03, 2015 6:31 PM
>>> *To:* JL Walker; World wide Open Space Technology email list
>>> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> you remind me, harrison, of one morning news session years ago,
>>> somewhere, probably OT... where ralph copleman walked to the center of the
>>> circle and announced, all serious and mischievous at the same time, "it's
>>> all moving!" Â
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> then put the stick down and went back to his seat.Â
>>>
>>>
>>> Â
>>> --
>>>
>>> Michael Herman
>>> Michael Herman Associates
>>> http://MichaelHerman.com <http://michaelherman.com/>
>>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org <http://openspaceworld.org/>
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 1:47 PM, JL Walker via OSList <
>>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I was thinking that maybe the antidote to the eventual tyranny of
>>> structurelessness is to open space, again and again, until true democracy
>>> can emerge.
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> Juan Luis
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> *De:* OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] *En nombre
>>> de *Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList
>>> *Enviado el:* sábado, 03 de octubre de 2015 12:19
>>> *Para:* Daniel Mezick; World wide Open Space Technology email list
>>> *Asunto:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> Hi Daniel,
>>>
>>> Yes, this is a key piece... I see it as very similar in some ways to
>>> what Ken Wilber wrote later,
>>>
>>> about the "shadow side of the green meme". (Each meme has its own
>>> shadow, as well as its own gift...)
>>>
>>> So, I love "green". I love circles, I love non-hierarchy, etc.
>>> And, part of the "shadow side of the green meme" is how ideologically
>>> anti-structure it can become...
>>>
>>> to the point where some people may not even agree that OST does, in
>>> fact, offer a very simple and effective structure.
>>>
>>> By way contrast, think of a situation where group of people (who don't
>>> know about OST, and/or, who are having a power struggle around "which
>>> process to use", and/or....  ) might easily spending a whole weekend
>>> arguing *about *"how to self-organize ourselves"... with a great deal
>>> more pain and frustration and a great deal less value.
>>>
>>> whereas, instead, IF someone knows about OST, and, a clear invitation
>>> has been extended, and, there is enough trust/suspension of disbelief so
>>> that participants are willing to enter into that format,
>>>
>>> then, we end up with a very simple and elegant structure that allows
>>> people to self-organize beautifully....
>>>
>>> at least that's how i see it! :-)
>>>
>>> with all best wishes,
>>>
>>> Rosa
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>>
>>> *Rosa Zubizarreta*
>>>
>>>
>>> *Developing Participatory and Co-intelligent Leadership Author of From
>>> Conflict to Creative Collaboration <http://www.conflict2creativity.com/>*
>>>
>>>
>>> *For more resources and learning opportunities, visit www.DiaPraxis.com
>>> <http://www.diapraxis.com/>*
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Daniel Mezick via OSList <
>>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS
>>> by Jo Freeman aka Joreen
>>>
>>> I find this essay extremely interesting. I hope you do, too.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is a pertinent quote, from the essay:
>>> "...
>>>
>>> *the idea of "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of
>>> informal structures, only formal ones." *
>>> Circa 1970. Context: the women's movement. Quick summary of the main
>>> points: from the essay...
>>>
>>> ï‚·  *During the years in which the women's liberation movement has
>>> been taking shape, a great emphasis has been placed on what are called
>>> leaderless, structureless groups as the main -- if not sole --
>>> organizational form of the movement. *
>>>
>>> ï‚·  *The idea of "structurelessness," however, has moved from a
>>> healthy counter to those tendencies, to becoming a goddess in its own
>>> right.*
>>>
>>> ï‚·  *Contrary to what we would like to believe, there is no such thing
>>> as a structureless group. *
>>>
>>> ï‚·  *This means that to strive for a structureless group is as useful,
>>> and as deceptive, as to aim at an "objective" news story, "value-free"
>>> social science, or a "free" economy. A "laissez faire" group is about as
>>> realistic as a "laissez faire" society; the idea becomes a smokescreen for
>>> the strong or the lucky to establish unquestioned hegemony over others. *
>>>
>>> ï‚·  *This hegemony can be so easily established because the idea of
>>> "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of informal structures,
>>> only formal ones. *
>>>
>>> ï‚·  *For everyone to have the opportunity to be involved in a given
>>> group and to participate in its activities, the structure must be explicit,
>>> not implicit. *
>>>
>>> ï‚·  *It is this informal structure, particularly in Unstructured
>>> groups, which forms the basis for elites.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just in case you have not yet encountered the full text of this essay,
>>> here it is:
>>>
>>> THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS
>>> by Jo Freeman aka Joreen
>>> http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Daniel
>>> http://www.OpenSpaceAgility.com/about
>>> <http://www.openspaceagility.com/about>
>>> http://www.DanielMezick.com <http://www.danielmezick.com/>
>>> 203 915 7248
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OSList mailing list
>>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OSList mailing list
>>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> OSList mailing list
>>>
>>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>>>
>>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>>>
>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>>>
>>> Past archives can be viewed here: http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Daniel Mezick, President
>>>
>>> New Technology Solutions Inc.
>>>
>>> (203) 915 7248 (cell)
>>>
>>> Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
>>> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter
>>> <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.Â
>>>
>>> Examine my new book:Â  The Culture Game
>>> <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the
>>> Agile Manager.
>>>
>>> Explore Agile Team Training
>>> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching.
>>> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
>>>
>>> Explore the Agile Boston <http://newtechusa.net/user-groups/ma/>
>>> Community.Â
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Daniel Mezick, President
>>>
>>> New Technology Solutions Inc.
>>>
>>> (203) 915 7248 (cell)
>>>
>>> Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
>>> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter
>>> <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.
>>>
>>> Examine my new book:  The Culture Game
>>> <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the
>>> Agile Manager.
>>>
>>> Explore Agile Team Training
>>> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching.
>>> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
>>>
>>> Explore the Agile Boston <http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>
>>> Community.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> --
>>
>> Michael Herman
>> Michael Herman Associates
>> http://MichaelHerman.com <http://michaelherman.com/>
>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org <http://openspaceworld.org/>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OSList mailing list
>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OSList mailing list
> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> Past archives can be viewed here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OSList mailing list
> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> Past archives can be viewed here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OSList mailing list
> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> Past archives can be viewed here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20151006/0018f6fb/attachment-0001.htm>