[OSList] Open Space and Holacracy
Suzanne Daigle
sdaigle4 at gmail.com
Thu Mar 6 04:10:30 PST 2014
Wow Michael and Christine,
Thank you for this discussion and your words.
The self-organizing that I felt drawn to and struggled so much to better
understand suddenly became clearer.
Describing "OST as pretty helpful in that effort" also described the
essence of it for me.... as a simple invitation, not forced or imposed or
dogmatic, said simply with such elegance and grace.
Thank you again.
Suzanne
On Mar 6, 2014 6:12 AM, "Michael M Pannwitz" <mmpannwitz at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Christine,
> you are on the safe side by focusing on expanding time and space for the
> forces of selforganisation to unfold and OST is pretty helpful in that
> effort.
> If you do that, a number of more or less puzzling things will regularly
> happen, such as high performance or laughter or heated debate or peaceful
> dialog between people that were at each others throats not long ago, etc.
> You "intended" none of that, that is you exerted no control, all you did
> is step back and make make more space for selforganisation to do its thing.
> In other words, Open Space does not create conditions for high performance
> but for the unfolding of selforganisation. And that in turn does various
> more or less amazing things that nobody ever imagined to happen.
> In my own practice, I noticed that much of what I think people are afraid
> of or are anxious about, are things that I am afraid of or anxious about.
> Now this is a question for me as facilitator processing this stuff in a way
> that it does not divert me from focusing on holding time and space. This is
> not healthy environment for selforganisation to unfold.
> Yes, it might be true, that people prefer to understand how things work.
> Indeed, I prefer when I understand things. Looking at the "rules" for a
> peacemaker, another word for facilitator, goes like this "Never delude
> yourself in thinking you can understand complex stuff" (or something like
> that). Again, that too diverts your attention (or in more classical terms,
> what I am paid for).
>
> What you report about the management seminar made me shout and lough,
> of course, you did supply the explenation for this nonsense: not enough
> time, no feedback, diffentiation of the entire group into 5 subgroups, etc.
> All conditions under which selforganisation is cramped...
>
> Have a great day
> mmp
>
> On 05.03.2014 21:47, christine koehler wrote:
>
>> Harrison,
>> Maybe I am beginning to get it. Maybe not.
>> You say self-organization is already there, no matter what we do or dont
>> do. ok.
>> Maybe the question is not about self-organisation but about high
>> performance : Hsieh, Gore, Semler's visions only say something about how
>> they see high performance flow from/in/thru the system. Might be an
>> attempt to control it, by naming it Holacracy, or even self
>> organization ? However, from what they say, their way of controling it
>> might end up with higher levels of performance than "command and
>> control"systems. Using Open Space creates conditions for high
>> performance. But then, should we just stop doing deciding and trying
>> things because no matter what we do the system will self-organize ?
>> Are we "working too hard" when we try to work differently ?Do you
>> believe that Zappos would have end up anyway with same performance
>> withoug the hard work of implementing Holacracy ? Anyway, we will never
>> know...
>>
>> My feeling is also that people tend to prefer when they understand how
>> things work (otherwise they get anxious), and in this regard
>> self-organization may make things uneasy. Who can tell how it works ?
>> If you take decision making for instance, and if I take Wosonos as an
>> example, sometimes the decision making process for the location on the
>> next one is so obvious to everybody who go through it that everything
>> seems easy and clear. But sometimes , and for reasons that are quite
>> unclear to me, it seems that the some people are not happy and the
>> decision maling process is questioned. Of course this is true with any
>> decision making process, maybe it's just that some processes are easier
>> to describe. Our brain needs to be able to simplify complex processes in
>> order to be comfortable with it.
>>
>> Right now I am experiencing something interesting : for a management
>> seminar, a few groups emerged from what I could call a very simplistic
>> "law of 2 feet" decision making process. ie there was offered
>> opportunity for 5 groups to emerge, and so it went. (why 5 ? well, that
>> was completely arbitrary. probably because timing was short and that
>> there were only very short time to get feedbacks fro the groupn as
>> feedback was required) . After the seminar where people are asked to
>> work further on those topics. Management decided not to let leaders of
>> those groups use the law of 2 feets but members could. (I agree this is
>> a strange rule). What is happening is that they are questioning the
>> decision making process : how do we know those topics are the most
>> important ones ? is this group the best to work on such particular topic
>> ? How can I feel legitimate in being the leader of this group as it is
>> not my dayjob ? etc.. Would you say that they are working too hard ?
>> That the system will take care of itself and anyway self-organize, no
>> matter what we do ?
>>
>>
>> Christine
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 11:27 PM, Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net
>> <mailto:hhowen at verizon.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Christine ... "I find very interesting this tension between personal
>> vision (think about Gore for instance or Semler and Semco) and
>> self-organization. looks very complex and human to me ;)____
>>
>> but still wondering how self-organization fits within this kind of
>> frame." ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> It is really easy. Self Organization is already there, but the poor
>> folks at Zappo think they did it! Surprise - what they really did
>> was complicate something that could have happened very easily by
>> itself. Ah! But we humans have to feel we are in control. Even when
>> we say we aren't and don't care to be. The Trojan Horse rides again.
>> Zappo'd as it were.____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> ho____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>>
>>
>> ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Harrison Owen____
>>
>> 7808 River Falls Dr.____
>>
>> Potomac, MD 20854____
>>
>> USA____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> 189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)____
>>
>> Camden, Maine 04843____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Phone 301-365-2093____
>>
>> (summer) 207-763-3261____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> www.openspaceworld.com <http://www.openspaceworld.com%20> ____
>>
>> www.ho-image.com <http://www.ho-image.com%20> (Personal Website)____
>>
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
>> OSLIST Go
>> to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-
>> openspacetech.org____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> *From:*oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org
>> <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org
>> <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>] *On Behalf Of
>> *christine koehler
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 04, 2014 2:35 PM
>>
>>
>> *To:* World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] Open Space and Holacracy____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> This reminds me of a very short conversation I had with a
>> participant of the Practice of Peace seminar last January. He had
>> left Zappos not so long ago. We exchanged a few words about the
>> ambiguity of Tony Hsieh mandating Zappos to become holacratic,
>> because it was his own personal vision.____
>>
>> I find very interesting this tension between personal vision (think
>> about Gore for instance or Semler and Semco) and self-organization.
>> ____
>>
>> looks very complex and human to me ;)____
>>
>> but stlll wondering how self-organization fits within this kind of
>> frame.
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Christine ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net
>> <mailto:hhowen at verizon.net>> wrote:____
>>
>> Christine, Zappo Holarchs "rolled out" according to the following...
>> Sounds like sort of a mandate to me. ho____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> http://qz.com/161210/zappos-is-going-holacratic-no-job-
>> titles-no-managers-no-hierarchy
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Harrison Owen____
>>
>> 7808 River Falls Dr.____
>>
>> Potomac, MD 20854____
>>
>> USA____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> 189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)____
>>
>> Camden, Maine 04843____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Phone 301-365-2093____
>>
>> (summer) 207-763-3261____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> www.openspaceworld.com <http://www.openspaceworld.com%20> ____
>>
>> www.ho-image.com <http://www.ho-image.com%20> (Personal Website)____
>>
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
>> OSLIST Go
>> to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-
>> openspacetech.org____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> *From:*oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org
>> <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org
>> <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>] *On Behalf Of
>> *Christine Whitney Sanchez
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 04, 2014 12:46 PM____
>>
>>
>> *To:* World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] Open Space and Holacracy____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Great post, Daniel. Our company worked with Tony Hseigh's Downtown
>> Las Vegas Project last year and found the whole thing to be very
>> self-organizing. ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> I'm surprised that Zappos is imposing any kind of mandate - where
>> did you discover this?____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Namasté,
>>
>> Christine
>>
>> Christine Whitney Sanchez, Partner
>> Innovation Partners International
>> Phoenix, AZ, USA +1.480.759.0262 <tel:%2B1.480.759.0262>
>> www.innovationpartners.com <http://www.innovationpartners.com>____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> On Mar 4, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Dan Mezick <dan at newtechusa.net
>> <mailto:dan at newtechusa.net>> wrote:____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> An invitation arouses curiousity, but a mandate dries up ____
>>
>> the bones... Ancient Proverb____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> The Mandate of Holacracy at Zappos:____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> http://newtechusa.net/agile/the-mandate-of-holacracy-at-zappos/
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone____
>>
>>
>> On Mar 4, 2014, at 11:36 AM, "Harrison Owen" <hhowen at verizon.net
>> <mailto:hhowen at verizon.net>> wrote:____
>>
>> Wikipedia (as usual) has everything you wanted to know... go to --
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holacracy
>>
>> I can certainly imagine Open Space playing a role in
>> Holacracies, and in
>> fact the "governance" in a Open Space could certainly be
>> described as
>> "Holacratic" -- which is to say "ruling power" is totally
>> distributed
>> amongst the participants. But there is a real difference.
>> Holacracy in Open
>> Space is totally an emergent phenomenon. Nobody designed it,
>> nobody
>> implements it -- it just shows up all by itself. Holacracy in
>> places like
>> Zappos is a designed phenomenon. Doubtless it works pretty well,
>> but it does
>> seem to me that they may be working a little too hard, creating
>> something
>> that can and does happen all by itself. I think.
>>
>> Harrison
>>
>> Harrison Owen
>> 7808 River Falls Dr.
>> Potomac, MD 20854
>> USA
>>
>> 189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)
>> Camden, Maine 04843
>>
>> Phone 301-365-2093
>> (summer) 207-763-3261
>>
>> www.openspaceworld.com <http://www.openspaceworld.com/>
>> www.ho-image.com <http://www.ho-image.com/> (Personal Website)
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the
>> archives of OSLIST
>> Go
>> to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-
>> openspacetech.org
>> <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-
>> openspacetech.org>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org
>> <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of
>> Kári Gunnarsson
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 11:20 AM
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Open Space and Holacracy
>>
>> I heard that Holacracy is somehow based upon the principles of
>> Open Space
>> and uses Open space for its implementation.
>>
>> On 4 March 2014 08:53, Rob van der Eyden
>> <robvandereyden at veranderarchitect.nl
>> <mailto:robvandereyden at veranderarchitect.nl>> wrote:____
>>
>> Hello Kári,____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Interesting question. How do you see the link between Open
>> space and ____
>>
>> Holacracy?____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Kind regards, Rob van der Eyden____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----____
>>
>> Van: oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org
>> <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>____
>>
>> [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] Namens Kári
>> Gunnarsson____
>>
>> Verzonden: maandag 3 maart 2014 21:52____
>>
>> Aan: Open Space Forum____
>>
>> Onderwerp: [OSList] Open Space and Holacracy____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> There have been much talk about the relationship of the
>> organizational ____
>>
>> chart and how Open Space operates. Recent compareson to me
>> has been to ____
>>
>> link the new self-organizing authority and decision-making
>> system ____
>>
>> called Holacracy____
>>
>> see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holacracy____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> I wonder if there are stories on the use of Open space to
>> transform ____
>>
>> more traditional system to one of Open Space based
>> Holacracy? I would ____
>>
>> be happy to learn some of your experiences in this regard.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> --____
>>
>> Kári Gunnarsson____
>>
>> kari.gunnarsson at simnet.is <mailto:kari.gunnarsson at simnet.is
>> >____
>>
>> gsm: +354 8645189 <tel:%2B354%208645189>____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ___________________________________________________
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>>
>> --
>> Kári Gunnarsson
>> kari.gunnarsson at simnet.is <mailto:kari.gunnarsson at simnet.is>
>> gsm: +354 8645189 <tel:%2B354%208645189>
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>> -- ____
>>
>> Christine Koehler, créatrice d'espace de Dialogue et de Coopération
>> Executive Coach, Médiateur
>> www.christine-koehler.fr <http://www.christine-koehler.fr/>
>> Tel : 06 13 28 71 38 <tel:06%2013%2028%2071%2038>
>> Fax : 09 72 32 36 65
>> <tel:09%C2%A0%2072%C2%A0%2032%2036%C2%A0%2065>____
>>
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>> --
>>
>> Christine Koehler, créatrice d'espace de Dialogue et de Coopération
>> Executive Coach, Médiateur
>> www.christine-koehler.fr <http://www.christine-koehler.fr/>
>> Tel : 06 13 28 71 38
>> Fax : 09 72 32 36 65
>> <http://christine-koehler.fr/2013/formation-de-levenement-
>> au-processus-avril-2013/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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> --
> Michael M Pannwitz
> Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
> ++49 - 30-772 8000
>
>
>
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