[OSList] FW: Profound change (was: The Open Agile Adoption story)

Tue Aug 27 08:58:41 PDT 2013

From: Harrison Owen [mailto:hhowen at verizon.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 9:58 AM
To: 'Artur Silva'
Subject: RE: [OSList] Profound change (was: The Open Agile Adoption story)

Artur – did you mean this to go to OSLIST as well? Anyhow, I have no disagreement with your observations concerning the history of Metanoia. So far as I know, it is as you say. On the subject of OT/OD, my take on both is laid out in my first book, “Spirit: Transformation and Development in Organizations.” It is now out of print, but if interested there is a full pdf version at http://openspaceworld.com/Spirit.pdf 

On your questions –

2.1. I know (or I think that I know) that the "two martinis" were taken after the first "Organization Transformation Conference” and that from the second one until the last one (in 2010, if I recall well) all were held in OST. Is that true?  --- I think you are right. I say “think” because I did not attend all of them, and have never bothered to track down the historical details.

2.2. I know (or I think that I know) that all the people that assembled for the first OT Conference were previously part of the OD movement. Is that correct? --- It is true that a lot of the participants were OD folks, but certainly not all. Me for example. Truth to tell, I had never really heard about “OD” and definitely was not a “card carrying member” of ODN. The notion of Organization Transformation popped into my head over several beers at the Terrytown Conference Center in the Fall of ’81 while talking to a friend. Only later did I find out that a few others were having similar thoughts, and I guess it is true that all or most of them had some association with ODN. 

2.3. I suspect that, if members of the OD movement decided to create an OT conference, it can only be because they decided that the problem was no longer (or not only) an OD question, but a real "Organizational Transformation" was what was needed. Is this true? --- I don’t think “decided” is the nature of what happened. And certainly there was not official action by the ODN group. If anything there was a lot of confusion and no small amount of antipathy. For many Oder’s OT was anathema. I didn’t really understand what they were all hot and bothered about, but then again I never thought of myself as “doing OD.” If you are interested in my take on the emerging situation I did a short description in the Preface to “Wave Rider.”

2.4. And what were the differences between OD and OT? Can it be that OD is normally “superficial change” and OT wanted to be about "profound change?--- I guess those words work, but I tend to see the distinction as being much more radical. More like frogs and butterflies. A frog starts out as a tadpole and gradually changes form (develops) to become a frog. Butterflies, on the other hand, have a very different journey. They do start as caterpillars, but then comes the cocoon in which there is a total dissolution of the old caterpillar. The End. And only then does the new form emerge. In traditional Christian terms – it is the story of Life, Death and Resurrection. As a good secularist  you wouldn’t say such a thing J -- but the modern story would be Order, Chaos with New and more complex order emergent. See “Spirit”

Harrison

Harrison Owen

7808 River Falls Dr.

Potomac, MD 20854

USA

189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)

Camden, Maine 04843

Phone 301-365-2093

(summer)  207-763-3261

www.openspaceworld.com 

www.ho-image.com (Personal Website)

To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org

From: Artur Silva [mailto:arturfsilva at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:39 AM
To: Harrison Owen; 'World wide Open Space Technology email list'
Subject: Re: [OSList] Profound change (was: The Open Agile Adoption story)

Dear Harrison: 

Your post raises me one comment and some questions.

1) Beginning with the comment: I think that the translation of "metanoia" in the Bible for "repentance" - that later influenced all the translation dictionaries of modern languages - is wrong and doesn't allow us to understand correctly the true meaning of the original word.

In the translation of the Bible from Aramaic to Greek and then to Latin (and later to the modern languages) the true meaning of “metanoia” was lost. Being a man of culture (probably the most educated man among the first Christians) and being a Roman citizen, born in Greece, Saul of Tarsus, knew very well that the meaning of “metanoia" ("Μετάνοια") was "profound change of mind". And he also understood that if his "change of mind" would be from being a Christian to any other position the same word "metanoia" could have been used!

The first Christians and the (Christian) translators of the Bible were more interested by the fact that this particular "change of mind" was from a persecutor of Christians to a becoming a Christian himself and hence used the word "repentance",  (in Latin "Repentance" - or "Pœnitentia" ), probably also because this could be in only one word as was metanoia. 

So they haven't used what would be the correct Latin translation ("mutatio animi") (change of mind). 

The point is that "metanoia" is indeed a "profound change of mind", a new world view, and the character of that change of mind is irrelevant - it doesn’t matter if he "repented from his sins" and "saw the (Christian) light" or, for instance, if someone changes his mind from being a Christian to became a believer in (the religion (?) of) Science. Or if he abandons the positivist view of science to begin to understand self-organization, emergence, chaos theory, etc. In all the case the word "metanoia" can be used.

This may seem a very theoretical distinction but my point is that this distinction has a great number of practical consequences in the way one sees reality, and particularly the reality of change.

2. Now, in what concerns my questions, can you be so kind, Harrison (and/or any others that also lived that historical - but much more recent period - to clarify some points for me? What is the real distinction between Organizational Development and Organizational Transformation?

I mean: 

2.1. I know (or I think that I know) that the "two martinis" were taken after the first "Organization Transformation Conference” and that from the second one until the last one (in 2010, if I recall well) all were held in OST. Is that true? 

2.2. I know (or I think that I know) that all the people that assembled for the first OT Conference were previously part of the OD movement. Is that correct?

2.3. I suspect that, if members of the OD movement decided to create an OT conference, it can only be because they decided that the problem was no longer (or not only) an OD question, but a real "Organizational Transformation" was what was needed. Is this true? 

2.4. And what were the differences between OD and OT? Can it be that OD is normally “superficial change” and OT wanted to be about "profound change?

Thanks and regards

Artur

  _____  

From: Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net>
To: 'Artur Silva' <arturfsilva at yahoo.com>; 'World wide Open Space Technology email list' <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> 
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 2:51 PM
Subject: RE: [OSList] Profound change (was: The Open Agile Adoption story)

Artur – I remember that discussion very well. Indeed it was one of the seminal many that have enriched OSLIST over the years. I also recall a small chuckle when I encountered the word, “metanoia” – a word very central to Christian thought and usually translated “repentance.” But whether you understand “profound change,” “transformative change” – or “repentance” I think it pretty well comes out to the same thing. A realignment with the deep forces of reality, and/or a turning away from false options. So – from where I sit it is indeed an old discussion that never gets old. It just gets deeper. It will be fun to see where we end up this time???

The interesting part of reading your questions of more than a decade ago is to notice how pertinent they still are, and simultaneously, how the passage of time has (in my view) provided a simple answer to each one: Yes. For example, even the most hardened skeptic would have to admit that the behaviors manifest in Open Space represent a radical change of direction from “Business as Usual” for that particular group. Massively dysfunctional organizations effectively communicate and work together, hostile parties, ordinarily given to shooting each other are seen to be hugging a kissing. Odd to say the least, and perhaps metanoia – definitely some new directions. How long the “change” lasts may be another question, but Rome was not built in a day. Or something. 

But the passage of time has done something else, at least for me. The questions as posed presuppose that there is a definite process, defined by someone (presumably me), performed by a community of individuals in ways that are “correct” or not. I would certainly agree that at a superficial level, those presuppositions are valid, but if so, they create a degree of anomaly that is deliciously inviting. I say “delicious” because I truly love anomalies simply because they point the way to deep and interesting questions.

The anomalous lump appears for me in my extending experience of facilitating Open Space. The more I “do” the clearer it becomes that doing more is the wrong way to go. In fact the less I do, the better things get. Following this vector it appears that perfection performance for me as a facilitator would be to do absolutely nothing at all. Strange practice/process. Seems best when it isn’t there!

Harrison    

Harrison Owen

7808 River Falls Dr.

Potomac, MD 20854

USA

189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)

Camden, Maine 04843

Phone 301-365-2093

(summer)  207-763-3261

www.openspaceworld.com 

www.ho-image.com (Personal Website)

To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to: <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org

From: oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of Artur Silva
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 6:52 AM
To: mmpannwitz at gmail.com; World wide Open Space Technology email list
Subject: [OSList] Profound change (was: The Open Agile Adoption story)

Dear Michael:

Thanks for asking about what I mean by "profound change" and sorry for the delay in my answer.

Since I have joined the OSLIST (in 1998, I think) my main objective has always been to try to understand the role of OST as a tool to facilitate profound changes in organizations, communities, societies, as well as in individuals.

As we can talk about "root learning" versus "profound learning" (paradigm shift) we can also talk about change that only alters the symptoms or the accessories from change that profoundly affect the structures and mental models of the individual, the community, the organization or even the society at large.

For many year I have used (and I still use) the Greek word “metanoia” to describe that type of change.

If you make a search in the Archives of this list for "OST and metanoia" you will see a post of Tue Oct 9 2001 (which I repeat bellow, just for fun), where I have pointed to a post in another list (http://www.learning-org.com/01.10/0025.html) to define the concept of “metanoia” based on the Italian sociologist Alberoni and then asked four questions trying to relate “OST and Metanoia”. 

The thread had the participation of people like the late Laurel, Florian, Reinhardt, Meg Salter, Harrison, Chris Weaver - that commented parts of it - and only one post that tried to answer to all my 4 questions: a post from the late Fr. Brian Bainbridge (Sun Nov 25). Here is my old post that initiated that conversation. Enjoy.

---

OST and metanoia

Artur F. Silva  <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> artsilva

at mail.eunet.pt <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E>  

 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> 
Tue Oct 9 15:34:32 PDT 2001

 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> 

 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> 
  _____  

 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E>  

 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E>  

 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> Dear OS-practitioners:
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> As many of you know, I am discussing in another list the problem of
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> enhancing organizational learning, especially double loop learning and
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> metanoia.
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> I plan, in a near future, to present OST and discuss how it can improve
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> double loop learning (or metanoia).
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> In the last post to them I have presented Alberoni's conception of
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> metanoia. I am asking for those of you who care about the subject to
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> read that post and then answer, to the list or privately to me, to
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E>  this
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> questions, using always the meaning that Alberoni gives to "metanoia":
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> 1) From your experience with OST, do you think that OST is an important
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> way to enhance metanoiaic states in organizations and communities?
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> 2) Do you think that some concepts current in the OST community
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E>  may
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> facilitate this? and others may make it difficult? What concepts?
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> 3) Do you think that the OS community qualifies in itself as a "birth stage"
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> (of a movement or of a Community of Practice, as Etienne Wenger defines
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> CoP's)?
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> 4) If so, do you think that there is a risk that the community may disperse in different "sub-practices", and that can diminish the overall metanoic
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> potential of OST?
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> For those of you that want to help me in understanding this, the
 <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> referred (and long) post can be found at:
http://www.learning-org.com/01.10/0025.html <mailto:oslist%40lists.openspacetech.org?Subject=Re%3A%20OST%20and%20metanoia&In-Reply-To=%3CTUE.9.OCT.2001.233432.0100.OSLIST%40LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU%3E> 
 <http://www.learning-org.com/01.10/0025.html> Thank you very much to all that will accept
 <http://www.learning-org.com/01.10/0025.html>  the challenge
 <http://www.learning-org.com/01.10/0025.html> Artur

 <http://www.learning-org.com/01.10/0025.html> ---

 <http://www.learning-org.com/01.10/0025.html> Best regards  

 <http://www.learning-org.com/01.10/0025.html> Artur

 <http://www.learning-org.com/01.10/0025.html> From: Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz at gmail.com>
To: Artur Silva <arturfsilva at yahoo.com>; World wide Open Space Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [OSList] The Open Agile Adoption story

 <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> 
Dear Artur,
tell me more about "profound changes"...
A couple of years ago, I had the privilege to facilitate an OST event 
for an agile consulting company. They schemed on how to transform their 
organisational life and process and structure in such a way that nobody 
would have to quit the company again on account of an employee becoming 
parent. Since they managed to invite and have attend partners and 
children (including ex-employees) I knew the whole thing would be a 
grand success. Its always been that way when I saw children attending an 
OST event.
I have no idea what happened to their burning business issue. They never 
told me which is probably a sign for them doing business as usual, 
profoundly.

Wish you all the best in your journey... ever thought of beginning it 
with an OST event?
Cheers
mmp

On 20.08.2013 16:21, Artur Silva wrote:
(...)

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