[OSList] Peggy plus OST Linkedin Comment

Tue Oct 23 11:11:07 PDT 2012

<laughing>

--

Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
312-280-7838 (mobile)

http://MichaelHerman.com
http://OpenSpaceWorld.org

On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Phelim McDermott <phelim at mac.com> wrote:

> Dear Michael and Chris,
>
> Three days after doing WOSonOS on the wednesday I stepped back in the
> saddle and played the Comedy Store.. Over the years I am well used to
> telling jokes to comics. Just for the record I can assure you it's much
> easier than opening space to the spacenics!
>
> :)
>
> Phelim x
>
> ________________________________
>
> I generally pick up emails only at the beginning and end of the working
> day. I am currently aiming to respond the following day. If it is urgent
> please call me on 07956 187298.
> _____________________________________
>
> www.improbable.co.uk
> @openspacer
>
>
> On 23 Oct 2012, at 18:26, Michael Herman <michael at michaelherman.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> --
>
> Michael Herman
> Michael Herman Associates
> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>
> http://MichaelHerman.com
> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Phelim McDermott <phelim at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Some thoughts Michael,
>>
>>
>> On 23 Oct 2012, at 15:43, Michael Herman <michael at michaelherman.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>
>
>
>>
>> All of which makes me wonder how many "osonos" events we've really had.
>>  What if we did count them up and start numbering the as we go forward, as
>> ALL having been descended from the HHO-convened "originals."  And what if
>> we agreed that, in the main, the clearly visible and open heart of any
>> osonos was a chunk of space and time where it ran "by the book" and if you
>> don't see it in the user's guide, then you don't see it in the room,
>> either?  Wouldn't have to be the whole event, but there could be a
>> distinction between "this is what we do because we're excited, creative
>> people and this is what we do because it's the heart of open space
>> practice."
>>
>>
>> In this discussion it would really help me if people were really clear
>> about when they are making generalised suggestions or clear criticisms of
>> WOSonOS 2012. (I'm not sure here if this is directed at our event. ) As
>> those who weren't there could think WOSonOS  2012 twelve was an event which
>> had lots of extraneous stuff added to the Open space part of the event. For
>> those not there I want to make it very clear. There was nothing at the
>> event which is not in the handbook perhaps the wall made of
>> scotch/sellotape as we know this was a solution to the site, the principles
>> being in more than one language and the break out spaces being animal
>> pictures as we couldn't stick things on the floor.
>>
>>
> sorry for the confusion, phelim... i have absolutely no comment about
> wosonos 2012 specifically... never imagined anything i was saying could be
> read that way cuz i wasn't there.  everything i'm suggesting here is all
> about all of osonos history and practice -- and all for the purpose of
> asking what should happen next... not trying to fix or change anything
> past.
>
> i don't know what happened in london, don't think anything negative or
> critical of your work there on the event, and like chris says, i count you
> among the relative short list of brave souls who's told jokes to comics.
>  maybe the trickiness of your task is better captured by calling it "doing
> magic in front of magicians."  the hands need to be VERY quick, indeed!
>
> --------------------------------
>
>
>>
>> If the experience is one of desiring a simpler execution of the basic
>> practice, then the solution is to offer to host an wosonos for yourself.
>>
>>
>> Knowing what it is like on the UK scene I would say the solution is to
>> offer an osonos now that WOSonOS has happened.  This is certainly more
>> possible after this years event. I doubt it would have been an immediately
>> sustainable event or as attended if we hadn't been able to publicise it as
>> a world event. Most of our support and income actually came from
>> international streams. As it is we have not covered our costs by a
>> considerable amount. If it had been an OSonOS I do not believe we w2ould
>> have had the international; diversity we had.
>>
>>
> this is what i mean about the W making a difference, in that suggests to
> potential participants that this one is special.  i think this has
> underlying reliance on and encouragement of some people being more valuable
> than others.  i understand that this helps pay the bills, but the other
> solution is to make the event so simple that it can't possibly lose money.
>
> ----------
>
>
>
>>  If, however, you're from the UK, for instance, and the UK has just
>> hosted, that means you don't really have a shot at it for at least a few
>> years.
>>
>>
>> I think you now have a much better shot at running a successful OSonOS
>> after what we did and I think there has been talk about this in sessions
>> about the UK community.
>>
>>
> yes... a better shot at running an osonos perhaps, but not Wosonos...
> which is but once a year and keeps moving... so follow-ons are stuck with
> the budget concerns you mentioned first.  my question is why do we need to
> twist ourselves up to make some events more special, more expensive, and
> more than a simple osonos?
>
> ------------------
>
>
>>   Further, if the process of choosing a host/location looks like it's
>> been pre-determined (which it often does, based on past comments by various
>> participants), then even if somebody like Paul was willing to host and the
>> community was willing to stay in the UK for another year, he wouldn't feel
>> like he had access to the process anyway.
>>
>>
>> Everyone has access to the process of opening some space. If he wants he
>> could communicate with the people who had a UK OS session and talked about
>> further UK events.
>>
>
> i'm not so interested in UK and Paul.  I'm thinking about our worldwide
> community practice.  I was just trying to explain the dynamic.
>
> -------------
>
>
>>
>>
>> Finally, if the pre-determined processing of the decision, or
>> pre-conversations, about the next invitation happen someplace other than in
>> the event, newcomers like Paul are right to say they are excluded.
>>
>>
>> It was made very clear at the event that if people were considering
>> hosting they would be supported to do so. The "predetermined" element or
>> eperception could be that if you are thinking of doing it a TWO YEAR prep
>> time is definitely helpful and so it could look like people who have been
>> thinking about it for a while know something you don't.
>>
>>
> i continue to be baffled by why it would take two years to prepare for the
> simplest meeting that could possibly work.  osonos takes but a few hours to
> organize, really... it's all the other agendas, like expanding practice in
> underserved areas and growing local practice groups that take all the time.
>  i just wonder if it's best and most effective for these various missions
> to travel in the same gathering.  of course they'll never be inseparable,
> but collegial learning, practice evangelization, and local practice group
> development is a lot for one event to do.  that's not what osonos was, it's
> what it's become... but i don't think we chose this consciously.  that's
> why i'd like us to reflect on it a bit...  yes it is what's happening, to
> some extent, but is it what we want?
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>> With all these conditions present, it's quite possible that Thomas' three
>> ways of using Two Feet only make the situation worse.  When someone comes
>> to the conclusion that they are stuck on the outside of the group and the
>> best we can say is "Leave if you like," that would seem a recipe for a bad
>> feeling -- especially once someone has made some investment to get to this
>> event and might feel stuck there for the two days, trying to figure it out.
>>
>>
>> No one has said leave if you like in fact I think people have encouraged
>> Paul to engage in a conversation about his thoughts and I continue to do
>> so. Please encourage him to join this discussion here via linkedin and
>> facebook where he has been posting his blogs.
>>
>> During the process of putting together WOSonOS 2012 we were very open in
>> making a number of invitations to be involved in helping us putting the
>> event on. We held two, two day open space events which the UK OS community
>> were invited to. During that process which definitely was not easy some
>> people joined us and supported us.. others fell away.  I also communicated
>> to Paul before the event about how we were organising things and offered to
>> meet him. That didn't happen.
>>
>>
> as i was asked to be part of the florida group, i responded directly to
> paul's postings by email.   i've not heard anything back from him. i also
> invited him to be part of the conversation for florida.  but again, it's
> not about paul.  my point about "leaving" was in response to thomas' three
> options, the last of which was "you can leave".  which is true enough, but
> i'm saying not perhaps very satisfying in some cases.
>
> ---------------------------
>
>
>> I'm not trying to put words in Paul's mouth or speak for him... I'm just
>> saying that it's possible that the way we invite and welcome and include
>> people in wosonos conversations, including the ones about where the next
>> event(s) might be held, might be ripe for review.  As we go along, and get
>> deeper in our own community practice and accumulate artifacts and habits,
>> we start to look a lot like a traditional organization -- in the sense that
>> we have an interest in stability, continuation, dependability, and such --
>> even as we are supposedly all about emergence and making it up as we go.
>>
>>
>> Likewise I'm not sure what Paul is thinking either. I have invited him to
>> join us on this list as I think Artur did as well. I do know that Paul was
>> interested in opening the space for WOSonOS in his own style which is to do
>> it in 2 and a half minutes. So I imagine he would think my introduction
>> went on a bit! (I must do some work on that).
>>
>>
> two and a half minutes is pretty short!  i'm curious but not very excited
> about what that would look like!
>
> -------------------------
>
>
>>
>> Like look at our watch midway through briefing the principle that says
>> "whenever it happens is the right time," the more habituated we become in
>> our gathering practice, the more we depend on and add to how we do wosonos
>> -- (even the W that got added a few years ago, for instance, creates
>> scarcity by giving one event some "specialness" above all others that year)
>> -- the more we add to our wosonos convening manual, beyond what's in the
>> user's guide, the more we are potentially perceived as welcomers who aren't
>> being very welcoming.
>>
>>
>> I mentioned in my opening the importance of not seeing an OST event as
>> something special and that "Wherever it happens is the right place" is a
>> useful reminder of this to me about this.
>>
>> What if we didn't have any more Wosonos events, for instance, what if we
>> just counted ALL osonos events as equal.  We wouldn't necessarily celebrate
>> the "20th anniversary" but could celebrate the 20th osonos and the 30th and
>> 100th... without giving the one somehow decended from Harrison's original 4
>> events at dulles airport any more importance than what lisa does in san
>> francisco, john does in haiti, or we've done here in chicago in the past?
>>  If all osonos events were allowed to be held as equal, then anyone could
>> put one on the map and the only side conversations would be among old
>> friends deciding where they might be able to meet up.  And note, too, that
>> there's nothing that says that if someone is hosting in australia, i can't
>> host an full and equal peer gathering at the very same time, in chicago.
>>  neither event needs special W-ing, and anyone can choose between either
>> gathering, and be surprised by who shows up, from how far or near.
>>
>> This was suggested by Paul at WOSonOS as one less thing to do. That we
>> perhaps shouldn't do WOSonOS again. A part of me thinks.. It would
>> certainly save a lot of work and stress. Another part says thats a bit like
>> saying maybe it would be better if we didn't have any more parties!  Maybe
>> when it's over its over.
>>
>>
> i guess i'm suggesting that we do one less thing... one less letter...
> drop the W... when we started our globetrotting, we called it that to
> notice that it was something bigger... now we could just tally up the
> number of osonos events and number of cities or countries and simply report
> and celebrate that.  i don't think osonos is over, but i'd like to think
> that it could be even bigger and more expansive and more
> connected/connecting if we could drop the specialness of one annual event
> (like dropping the specialness of keynote speakers, i think, and everybody
> listening to all the same stuff), if we could invite more and more simple
> breakouts around the world.  more parties, not less!
>
> ----------------------------
>
>
>> These are things I've thought about for many years, and found few ripe
>> openings to discuss, in part cuz I've not been able to attend osonos
>> anywhere for some years.  So I can appreciate how somebody newer to the mix
>> might feel frustrated having made an investment to join and then come to
>> the conclusion that we're as deep in our habits and rituals as any other
>> exclusive organization.  More frustrating because we always seem to say
>> otherwise.  Having tried at times from "within" to have these
>> conversations, I can appreciate how hard it would feel from apparently "the
>> outside."
>>
>>
>> Sometimes people are on the outside because they feel excluded and
>> sometimes they enjoy "the outsider" role. It has some useful things to say.
>> This is an interesting topic to discuss in relation to the Law of Two Feet.
>>
>>
> absolutely.  and... if outside exists at all.  hence my "apparently".
>
> ----------------------
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> What if....?
>>
>>
>> Yep what if?
>>
>
> that's what i want to find out!  <grin>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Michael Herman
>> Michael Herman Associates
>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>>
>> http://MichaelHerman.com
>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 3:11 AM, Thomas Herrmann <
>> thomas at openspaceconsulting.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the Law is about action too. You can act in three ways****
>>>
>>> **1.       **Mental movement (try to change yourself, focus and be
>>> fully present, maybe you are missing something important here) – thanks
>>> Jan-Erik for this perspective during NOSonOS in august!****
>>>
>>> **2.       **“Intervention” into what you don’t enjoy, for example if
>>> you find the break out group too large – say it!****
>>>
>>> **3.       **Leave and go somewhere else.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Cheers****
>>>
>>> Thomas Herrmann****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> *Från:* oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org [mailto:
>>> oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] *För *Chris Corrigan
>>> *Skickat:* den 23 oktober 2012 07:13
>>> *Till:* World wide Open Space Technology email list
>>> *Kopia:* World wide Open Space Technology email list
>>> *Ämne:* Re: [OSList] Peggy plus OST Linkedin Comment****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Koos...for me the law of two feet is about passion and responsibility.
>>>  If you care about something, take care of it.  ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Paul may have felt that he was "taking care of it" when he produced his
>>> critiques of the event in London.  Possibly. But my experience is that many
>>> people are comfortable just being in their passion about something -
>>> sometimes just ranting - and fail to join in, support, improve, help out or
>>> otherwise make a responsibility based offering to the situation at hand.
>>>  While i appreciate criticism and am perfectly capable of wrestling with
>>> ideas - and in this case I even pointed out that there is much merit in
>>> Paul's observations - I nevertheless would invite consideration of the fact
>>> that if someone is sitting through an open space event and not offering
>>> responsibility, that the criticism has the feeling of being sniping from
>>> the sidelines while failing to take up the invitation at hand and it's hard
>>> to work with that.  That is all.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> A some level, love it or leave is also always an option, but that isn't
>>> what I'm talking about here.  I'm looking for a more nuanced response from
>>> a practitioner that is clearly very familiar with the dynamics of Open
>>> Space and self organization and wondering what he did at the event to use
>>> his own power to create the experience he was looking for.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> He may have done something, but as I read it, he stayed for whole thing
>>> and then wrote a fairly detailed critique of the whole experience.  ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> So.   Hmmmmm.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> ---****
>>>
>>> CHRIS CORRIGAN****
>>>
>>> http://www.chriscorrigan.com****
>>>
>>> +1 604 947 9236****
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2012-10-21, at 3:22 AM, Koos de Heer <koos at auryn.nl> wrote:****
>>>
>>> Hi Chris, ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> I am not sure I understand what you mean when you say that the law of
>>> two feet applies. If it means as much as "This is Open Space, love it or
>>> leave it," I feel compelled to say that I don't support that. ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Of course I can walk out of a session if I am feeling that I am neither
>>> learning nor contributing. But if I have the idea that the Open Space
>>> gathering as a whole could use improvements in the way it is run, referring
>>> to the law of two feet can become a way to evade a discussion that needs to
>>> take place. It can take place at a later date, which is what is happening
>>> now and that is fine. ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Koos****
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Op 20 okt. 2012 om 21:23 heeft Chris Corrigan <chris.corrigan at gmail.com>
>>> het volgende geschreven:****
>>>
>>> The critique in the article is fine. And the subsequent link Phelim sent
>>> along is fine too. Paul's tone is a bit jarring and his argument isn't
>>> helped by making a lot of generalized statements. Also he critiques WOSonOS
>>> in a way that makes it hard to separate his critique if the event from a
>>> critique of the team, even though he later clarifies that he wasn't
>>> critiquing the facilitator. It's tricky to make a forceful and powerful
>>> critique without it seeming personal.  ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> My response to these posts is that Paul is right in substance. In
>>> general my take in things is that the Law of Two Feet applies. If you are
>>> not learning or contributing find some way or some where that you can.
>>> That's what makes things better. Obviously expecting others to change the
>>> way the way a process seems too dependant on them is rational madness. *
>>> ***
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris
>>> -- ****
>>>
>>> CHRIS CORRIGAN****
>>>
>>> Harvest Moon Consultants****
>>>
>>> www.chriscorrigan.com****
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ****
>>>
>>>
>>> *Art of Hosting - Participatory Leadership and Social Collaboration*,
>>> Bowen Island, BC <http://aohrivendell.withtank.com/>****
>>>
>>> November 12-15 2012 ****
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ****
>>>
>>> *Art of Hosting in Faith Based Communities*, Salt Lake City, Utah<http://aoh-fbc.withtank.com/what-we-study/>
>>> ****
>>>
>>> November 28th - December 1, 2012****
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2012-10-20, at 5:09 AM, "alan at alanhalford.com.au" <
>>> alan at alanhalford.com.au> wrote:****
>>>
>>> Just spent a delicious  three days co-learning with Peggy Holman here in
>>> Perth then I read this - ****
>>>
>>> So, what's possible now?****
>>>
>>>
>>> http://rationalmadness.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/the-tragic-re-imprisonment-of-open-space/
>>> ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> take care out there****
>>>
>>> alan ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> *
>>> **www.alanhalford.com.au
>>> 0421 475 252
>>> skype: alanhalford*****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> * *****
>>>
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