[OSList] Teach Them to Fish / A Note to My Friends

Sat Feb 25 14:05:18 PST 2012

Joanne – we may get back to Krill fishing (or whatever is next down on the food chain).. But I think the principles still apply.

ho

Harrison Owen

7808 River Falls Dr.

Potomac, MD 20854

USA

189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)

Camden, Maine 20854

Phone 301-365-2093

(summer)  207-763-3261

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From: oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of Joanne Mantha
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 3:43 PM
To: oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
Subject: Re: [OSList] Teach Them to Fish / A Note to My Friends

I agree with your sequence as long as nobody pollutes the environment in the meantime and that there is still fish to fish....  Joanne

  _____  

Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 05:18:47 +0900
From: spark.osk at gmail.com
To: oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
Subject: Re: [OSList] Teach Them to Fish / A Note to My Friends

Abundance seems to be a sociospiritual issue of ourkind. It seems that it can be found only within and inbetween. - spark

2012. 2. 26. 오전 4:43에 "Harrison Owen" <hhowen at verizon.net>님이 작성:

Bernd – No problem. Totally understand where you are coming from. At the end of the day if you empower someone, by whatever means or degree – you have, at least to some real extent, dis-empowered them. Or at the very least, further encumbered their situation. All that said there are indeed times when the ONLY thing you can do in the moment is hand out a fish. Starving people, still less dead ones – don’t learn very well… to fish or anything else. However, if your actions end with fish distribution, or almost as destructive, you do teach them to fish, but then hover over their shoulders to make sure they do it RIGHT, well that is a different kettle of fish (sorry about that J). Maybe there is a sequence here – Fish Distributors, Fishing Teachers, and then “Gone fish ‘in” – looking for other fish to fry. Or something.

Harrison 

Harrison Owen

7808 River Falls Dr.

Potomac, MD 20854

USA

189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)

Camden, Maine 20854

Phone 301-365-2093

(summer)  207-763-3261

www.openspaceworld.com

www.ho-image.com (Personal Website)

To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org

From: oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of Bernhard Weber
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 1:24 AM
To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
Subject: Re: [OSList] Teach Them to Fish / A Note to My Friends

Harrison, 

I have been living so long under conditions where the giver/beggar word pairing is not only a metaphor (Beira is the capital of Sofala province in Mozambique), so I had to deal with the problem also at a very practical level and on base of that I want to say:

I fully agree 

and would like to complete something that I wrote in my last posting in answering what Artur has written. 

Yes the giver-beggar relation creates conditions for helplessness and continued dependence and subservience. And yes, the dynamics is independent from altruistic intentions.

And I would complete, if you have a feeling for yourself and/or a spiritual perspective this means, such kind of giving is also bad for the giver, his/her mental costume and/or karma.

But when I wrote in my last posting: sometimes you should also give the fish (meaning that nobody who is starved can learn) isn't that a contradiction?

Yes it is, but

a) contradictions as such are not necessarily bad. At least they are good for triggering thinking processes if not for more (like being a basic ingredient for self-organization, this also refers to the dissence-thread of this groups)

b) it all depends on the real process. If temporary dependence is a price for helping out from helplessness so that further steps can follow, like learning, like disappearing of the giver, teacher, blurring/integrating of roles to teacherlearners and learnerteachers, I would say it is an acceptable price

Bernd

On Feb 24, 2012, at 3:01 AM, Harrison Owen wrote:

The secondary point may be less than obvious. When you are simply handed a fish the conditions for learned helplessness and continued dependence, to say nothing of subservience are created. Even with the best, most altruistic intentions in the world, a fish handout has its problems. 

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